[torginus]

Which if you try to do - those agile people will kill you for it.

They wrangle a number out of you which goes into an user story estimate, which feeds into a Gantt chart they use to make their pretty powerpoints they present to upper management to say that the feature will make it into the Q4 release.

If you move this number around the whole estimation will crumble, not that it wont in real life but you deprave them of two things - an illusion of control and somebody to blame when things go south.

[mpyne]

> Which if you try to do - those agile people will kill you for it.

Does this actually happen to you? This is literally the whole point of agile, is to change the plan as you learn more about your work. If you didn't want to change the plan you'd spend a lot of time on up-front planning and do waterfall.

Like, a Gantt chart is more or less explicitly anti-agile. I'm aware of the 'no true Scotsman' thing but we shouldn't buy into people using agile terms for what is really a BDUF-based plan.

[torginus]

> Does this actually happen to you?

Yes and millions of other devs who work in an enterprise 'agile' environment - where a single huge project is/was developed by armies of developers work on a single product with a strict-ish release cadence?

Have you heard about the horror that is SaFe?

I'm not convinced that true agile works or has ever worked on a project that was bigger than a dozen devs.

In practice, it's just another dishonest way of selling consulting hours, infantilizing and disempowering devs, and putting folks who have zero subject matter knowledge in charge by doing these feelgood rituals.

Agile (scrum) in practice at enterprise-scale projects tends to be a combination of feelgood BS +top-down micromanagement (product owners dicking around with task priorities) +traditional project management.

One of the key ways these agile people are incredibly dishonest, is that Agile at the top level is sold to enterprises as a way of keeping the old high-level project management style, with push-only command-structures, and agile people subsequently try to sugarcoat it as it somehow 'empowering' the devs and giving them autonomy, when the truth couldn't be farther from it.

[mpyne]

> Have you heard about the horror that is SaFe?

Yes, and I successfully argued against it by pointing it was was a wolf in sheep's clothing. It has as much to do with agile as waterfall does.

> I'm not convinced that true agile works or has ever worked on a project that was bigger than a dozen devs.

It works fine, large projects are inherently trouble which is why organizations should spend some energy into reducing the scale of an individual team's work rather than piling dozens or hundreds of people into yet another Too Big to Fail megaproject. If Google can build and maintain Bigtable with like a dozen devs then maybe you don't need 200 people and a PMO for your enterprise data warehouse consolidation project.

In fact the biggest issue with SAFe is the size of the project you'd try to use it on, not that it references agile style methods. Waterfall methods were even worse, which is the only reason charlatan consultation manage to keep selling organizations on things like SAFe.

> One of the key ways these agile people are incredibly dishonest, is that Agile at the top level is sold to enterprises as a way of keeping the old high-level project management style, with push-only command-structures, and agile people subsequently try to sugarcoat it as it somehow 'empowering' the devs and giving them autonomy, when the truth couldn't be farther from it.

You're right that this is dishonest and that people try and fail to cargo cult successful efforts they watch from afar. But that doesn't mean these successful teams weren't successful, or that there aren't common attributes of those successes.

That's always been the problem with methodological fixes to the software delivery process for organizations, you usually can't impose the structure from the outside anymore than you can meld your bones with adamantium without having a crazy mutant healing factor...

[Aeolun]

> If you move this number around the whole estimation will crumble

I still love this sprint where the further into the sprint we went, the further the ‘remaining work’ line went up.

It’s good we could do that without blame, but it looks super funny.

[kragen]

You're describing the opposite of Agile Development. The Agile Manifesto says, "Responding to change over following a plan."

[humanfromearth9]

Yes, but the comment is targeting those people that usually would say about themselves that they embrace agile, while actually fighting everything that changes their little schemes...

[kragen]

So should we be talking about how "those democratic people" put everyone who disagrees with them in concentration camps because that's what the Democratic People's Republic of Korea does?

There are, of course, extreme-right-wing reactionaries who make exactly that argument, but I don't think their example is a good one to follow.

[xboxnolifes]

That war is over. We lost.