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by okdood64 186 days ago
From the blog:

https://arxiv.org/abs/2501.00663

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2504.13173

Is there any other company that's openly publishing their research on AI at this level? Google should get a lot of credit for this.

12 comments

DeepSeek and other Chinese companies. Not only do they publish research, they also put their resources where their mouth (research) is. They actually use it and prove it through their open models.

Most research coming out of big US labs is counter indicative of practical performance. If it worked (too) well in practice, it wouldn't have been published.

Some examples from DeepSeek:

https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.04434

https://arxiv.org/abs/2502.11089

Well it's cool that they released a paper, but at this point it's been 11 months and you can't download a Titans-architecture model code or weights anywhere. That would put a lot of companies up ahead of them (Meta's Llama, Qwen, DeepSeek). Closest you can get is an unofficial implementation of the paper https://github.com/lucidrains/titans-pytorch
The hardest part about making a new architecture is that even if it is just better than transformers in every way, it’s very difficult to both prove a significant improvement at scale and gain traction. Until google puts in a lot of resources into training a scaled up version of this architecture, I believe there’s plenty of low hanging fruit with improving existing architectures such that it’ll always take the back seat.
Google is large enough, well-funded enough, and the opportunity is great enough to run experiments.

You don't necessarily have to prove it out on large foundation models first. Can it beat out a 32b parameter model, for example?

Do you think there might be an approval process to navigate when experiments costs might run seven or eight digits and months of reserved resources?

While they do have lots of money and many people, they don't have infinite money and specifically only have so much hot infrastructure to spread around. You'd expect they have to gradually build up the case that a large scale experiment is likely enough to yield a big enough advantage over what's already claiming those resources.

I would imagine they do not want their researchers unnecessarily wasting time fighting for resources - within reason. And at Google, "within reason" can be pretty big.
I mean looking antigravity, jules & gemini cli, they have have no problem with their developers fighting for resources
I mean you'd think so, but...

> In fact, the UL2 20B model (at Google) was trained by leaving the job running accidentally for a month.

https://www.yitay.net/blog/training-great-llms-entirely-from...

Until google puts in a lot of resources into training a scaled up version of this architecture

If Google is not willing to scale it up, then why would anyone else?

chatgpt is an example on why.
You think that this might be another ChatGPT/Docker/Hadoop case, where Google comes up with the technology but doesn't care to productize it?
But, it's companies like Google that made tools like Jax and TPU's saying we can throw together models with cheap, easy scaling. Their paper's math is probably harder to put together than an alpha-level prototype which they need anyway.

So, I think they could default on doing it for small demonstrators.

Prove it beats models of different architectures trained under identical limited resources?
Yes. The path dependence for current attention based LLMs is enormous.
At the same time, there is now a ton of data for training models to act as useful assistants, and benchmarks to compare different assistant models. The wide availability and ease of obtaining new RLHF training data will make it more feasible to build models on new architectures I think.
I don't think the comparison is valid. Releasing code and weights for an architecture that is widely known is a lot different than releasing research about an architecture that could mitigate fundamental problems that are common to all LLM products.
Just keep in mind it is performance review time for all the tech companies. Their promotion of these seems to be directly correlated with that event.
The newer one is from late May: https://arxiv.org/abs/2505.23735
> it's been 11 months

Is that supposed to be a long time? Seems fair that companies don't rush to open up their models.

I don't think model code is a big deal compared to the idea. If public can recognize the value of idea 11 months ago, they could implement the code quickly because there are so much smart engineers in AI field.
If that is true, does it follow this idea does not actually have a lot of value?
Student: Look, there’s hundred dollar bill on the ground! Economist: No there isn’t. If there were, someone would have picked it up already.

To wit, it's dangerous to assume the value of this idea based on the lack of public implementations.

If the hundred dollar bill was in an accessible place and the fact of its existence had been transmitted to interested parties worldwide, then yeah, the economist would probably be right.
That day the student was the 100th person to pick it up, realize it's fake, and drop it
In my opinion, a refined analogy would be:

Student: Look, a well known financial expert placed what could potentially be a hundred dollar bill on the ground, other well-known financial experts just leave it there!

Well we have the idea and the next best thing to official code, but if this was a big revelation where are all of the Titan models? If this were public, I think we'd have a few attempts at variants (all of the Mamba SSMs, etc.) and get a better sense if this is valuable or not.
Gemini 3 _is_ that architecture.
I've read many very positive reviews about Gemini 3. I tried using it including Pro and to me it looks very inferior to ChatGPT. What was very interesting though was when I caught it bullshitting me I called its BS and Gemini expressed very human like behavior. It did try to weasel its way out, degenerated down to "true Scotsman" level but finally admitted that it was full of it. this is kind of impressive / scary.
Every Google publication goes through multiple review. If anyone thinks the publication is a competitor risk it gets squashed.

It's very likely no one is using this architecture at Google for any production work loads. There are a lot of student researchers doing fun proof of concept papers, they're allowed to publish because it's good PR and it's good for their careers.

Underrated comment, IMHO. There is such a gulf between what Google does on its own part, and the papers and source code they publish, that I always think about their motivations before I read or adopt it. Think Borg vs. Kubernetes, Stubby vs. gRPC.
The amazing thing about this is the first author has published multiple high-impact papers with Google Research VPs! And he is just a 2nd-year PhD student. Very few L7/L8 RS/SWEs can even do this.
I mean, they did publish the word2vec and transformers papers, which are both of major significance to the development of LLMs.
Something that Google, in hindsight, regrets.
Any link on that?
Bytedance is publishing pretty aggressively.

Recently, my favorite from them was lumine: https://arxiv.org/abs/2511.08892

Here's their official page: https://seed.bytedance.com/en/research

Meta is also being pretty open with their stuff. And recently most of the Chinese competition.
Oh yes, I believe that's right. What's some frontier research Meta has shared in the last couple years?
Their VGGT, Dinov3, and segment anything models are pretty impressive.
Take a look at JEPAs (Video Joint Embedding Predictive Architecture), SAM (Segment Anything), etc for Meta's latest research.

https://ai.meta.com/vjepa/

https://ai.meta.com/sam2/

https://ai.meta.com/research/

Meta just published Segment Anything 3 and along with a truly amazing version that can create 3D models posing like the people in a photo. It is very impressive.
Anything with Jason Weston as a coauthor tends to be pretty well written/readable and often has nice results.
"What's some frontier research Meta has shared in the last couple years?"

the current Meta outlook is embarassing tbh, the fact they have largest data of social media in planet and they cant even produce a decent model is quiet "scary" position

Yann was a researcher not a productization expert. His departure signals the end of Meta being open about their work and the start of more commercial focus.
The start?
Just because they are not leading current sprint of maximizing transformers doesn't mean they're not doing anything.

It's not impossible that they asses it as local maximum / dead end and are evaluating/training something completely different - and if it'll work, it'll work big time.

Llama 4 wasn't great, but Llama 3 was.

Do we all forget how bad GPT 4.5 was?

OpenAI got out of that mess with some miraculous post-training efforts on their older GPT-4o model.

But in a different timeline we are all talking about how great Llama 4.5 is and how OpenAI needs to recover from the GPT 4.5 debacle.

As a counterpoint, I found GPT 4.5 by far the most interesting model from OpenAI in terms of depth and width of knowledge, ability to make connections and inferences and apply those in novel ways.

It didn't bench well against the other benchmaxxed models, and it was too expensive to run, but it was a glimpse of the future where more capable hardware will lead to appreciably smarter models.

Just because they have that doesn't mean they're going to use it for training.
"Just because they have that doesn't mean they're going to use it for training."

how noble is Meta upholding a right moral ethic

/s

A very common thing people do is assume a) all corporations are evil b) all corporations never follow any laws c) any evil action you can imagine would work or be profitable if they did it.

b is mostly not true but c is especially not true. I doubt they do it because it wouldn't work; it's not high quality data.

But it would also obviously leak a lot of personal info, and that really gets you in danger. Meta and Google are able to serve you ads with your personal info /because they don't leak it/.

(Also data privacy laws forbid it anyway, because you can't use personal info for new uses not previously agreed to.)

oh man… just because they have data doesn’t mean they will serve you ads :) Geeeez
I’ve long predicted that this game is going to be won with product design rather than having the winning model; we now seem to be hitting the phase of “[new tech] mania” where we remember that companies have to make things that people want to pay more money for than it costs to make them. I remember (maybe in the mid aughts) when people were thinking Google might not ever be able to convert their enthusiasm into profitability…then they figured out what people actually wanted to buy, and focused on that obsessively as a product. Failing to do that will lead to failure go for the companies like open AI.

Sinking a bazillion dollars into models alone doesn’t get you shit except a gold star for being the valley’s biggest smartypants, because in the product world, model improvements only significantly improve all-purpose chatbots. The whole veg-o-matic “step right up folks— it slices, it dices, it makes julienne fries!” approach to product design almost never yields something focused enough to be an automatic goto for specific tasks, or simple/reliable enough to be a general purpose tool for a whole category of tasks. Once the novelty wears off, people largely abandon it for more focused tools that more effectively solve specific problems (e.g. blender, vegetable peeler) or simpler everyday tools that you don’t have to think about as much even if they might not be the most efficient tool for half your tasks (e.g. paring knife.) Professionals might have enough need and reason to go for a really great in-between tool (e.g mandolin) but that’s a different market, and you only tend to get a limited set of prosumers outside of that. Companies more focused on specific products, like coding, will have way more longevity than companies that try to be everything to everyone.

Meta, Google, Microsoft, and even Apple have more pressure to make products that sanely fit into their existing product lines. While that seems like a handicap if you’re looking at it from the “AI company” perspective, I predict the restriction will enforce the discipline to create tools that solve specific problems for people rather than spending exorbitant sums making benchmark go up in pursuit of some nebulous information revolution.

Meta seems to have a much tougher job trying to make tools that people trust them to be good at. Most of the highest-visibility things like the AI Instagram accounts were disasters. Nobody thinks of Meta as a serious, general-purpose business ecosystem, and privacy-wise, I trust them even less than Google and Microsoft: there’s no way I’m trusting them with my work code bases. I think the smart move by Meta would be to ditch the sunk costs worries, stop burning money on this, focus on their core products (and new ones that fit their expertise) and design these LLM features in when they’ll actually be useful to users. Microsoft and Google both have existing tools that they’ve already bolstered with these features, and have a lot of room within their areas of expertise to develop more.

Who knows— I’m no expert— but I think meta would be smart to try and opt out as much as possible without making too many waves.

My thesis is the game is going to be won - if you define winning as a long term profitable business - by Google because they have their own infrastructure and technology not dependent on Nvidia, they have real businesses that can leverage AI - Google Search, YouTube and GCP - and they aren’t burning money they don’t have.

2nd tier winner is Amazon for the same reasons between being able to leverage AI with both Amazon Retail and AWS where they can sell shovels. I’ve also found their internal Nova models to be pretty good for my projects.

Microsoft will be okay because of Azure and maybe Office if they get their AI story right.

I just don’t see any world where OpenAI comes out ahead from a business standpoint as long as they are sharecroppers on other people’s hardware. ChatGPT alone will never make it worth the trillion dollar capitalization long term unless it becomes a meme stock like Tesla

Yeah that’s also about where I land.
never seen I say this but X(twitter) has more success in integrate their business product with AI (Grok)

I know I know that Elon is crazy etc but Grok example and way to integrate with core product is actually the only ways I can even came up tbh (other than character.ai flavor)

Actually haven’t used it at all so that’s a big blind spot in my understanding of the ecosystem.
If I was a Meta shareholder I might well agree with you. But as someone with very little interest in their products so far, I’m very happy for them to sink huge amounts of money into AI research and publishing it all.
I’m just calling balls and strikes. For all I care, the whole lot of them can get sucked down a storm drain. Frankly I think there’s way too much effort and resources being put into this stuff regardless of who’s doing it. We’ve got a bunch of agentic job stealers, a bunch of magic spam/slop generators, and a bunch of asinine toys with the big name LLM stuff: I don’t think that’s a net gain for humanity. Then there’s a bunch of genuinely useful things made by people who are more interested in solving real problems. I’ll care about the first category when it consistently brings more value than garbage “content” and job anxiety to average people’s lives.
The author is listed as a "student researcher", which might include a clause that students can publish their results.

Here is a bit more information about this program: https://www.google.com/about/careers/applications/jobs/resul...

It was not always like this. Google was very secretive in the early days. We did not start to see things until the GFS, BigTable and Borg (or Chubby) papers in 2006 timeframe.
By 2006, Google was 8 years old. OpenAI is now 10.
Google publishes detailed papers of its architecture once it’s built the next version.

AI is a bit different.

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> Is there any other company that's openly publishing their research on AI at this level? Google should get a lot of credit for this.

80% of the ecosystem is built on top of companies, groups and individuals publishing their research openly, not sure why Google would get more credit for this than others...

Working with 1M context windows daily - the real limitation isn't storage but retrieval. You can feed massive context but knowing WHICH part to reference at the right moment is hard. Effective long-term memory needs both capacity and intelligent indexing.
Arxiv is flooded with ML papers. Github has a lot of prototypes for them. I'd say it's pretty normal with some companies not sharing for perceived, competitive advantage. Perceived because it may or may not be real vs published prototypes.

We post a lot of research on mlscaling sub if you want to look back through them.

https://www.reddit.com/r/t5_3bzqh1/s/yml1o2ER33

lol you don't get it. If it's published it means it's not very useful
What about the Attention paper?
Maybe it's just misdirection - a failed approach ?

Given the competitive nature of the AI race, it's hard to believe any of these companies are really trying to help the competition.