[array_key_first]

There is zero way you don't alienate anyone. Ask women software engineers if they ever feel alienated. That's the reason why some communities like the python community do outreach for minorities in tech.

I'm a white man, and I have never felt "alienated" in so-called progressive spaces.

[stack_framer]

> outreach for minorities in tech

Why is there no outreach to other minorities in tech, like the Amish, for example? They are certainly more underrepresented than women in the python community.

Or how about male ballet dancers? Why isn't the python community allocating some of its resources to helping them feel seen and included?

I'm giving ridiculous examples because the whole premise is ridiculous. And my general question remains: Why devote the resources of a tech community toward one social issue/group or another? There are plenty of other outlets more suitable for doing our civic duty.

[array_key_first]

> Why is there no outreach to other minorities in tech, like the Amish, for example? They are certainly more underrepresented than women in the python community.

Well the amish wouldn't want the outreach, because they're amish.

> There are plenty of other outlets more suitable for doing our civic duty.

I kind of hate this mentality, because there's no logic or reasonableness behind it.

There's ALWAYS another place you can do something. Always. Where you draw the line is arbitrary. There's no rulebook anywhere saying we can't do this in tech. That's just your opinion, that you made up. We don't have to do that and, evidently, we don't.

[zahlman]

> There's ALWAYS another place you can do something. Always. Where you draw the line is arbitrary.

Yes, that's the point. If you're drawing a line that agentively impacts others, you are the one responsible for defending where it's drawn.

> There's no rulebook anywhere saying we can't do this in tech.

Nobody is telling you that you can't do these things (except where impermissible by law). They are telling you not to rope or pressure unwilling others into it.

[array_key_first]

I think where we disagree is the "roping people in" thing.

If you're part of an organization, you're gonna be roped into their organization standards. Whether that be for behavior (no cursing on their forums), or for outreach, or whatever.

Joining the organization is optional, and if you feel, say, the python foundation doesn't align with your own beliefs, then just don't join. That's always been allowed.

As for working with people you might not want to, that's also just a part of organizations.

[zahlman]

> Ask women software engineers if they ever feel alienated.

I have, on multiple occasions. The general summary of what I have learned from doing so, is that they find it cringe to ask, and appear annoyed by the suspicion that they're getting roped into someone else's political battle.

> That's the reason why some communities like the python community do outreach for minorities in tech.

No, they do it because it aligns with the cultural values of the people in charge. (As it happens, it also aligned with GvR's values when he was in charge.)

> I'm a white man, and I have never felt "alienated" in so-called progressive spaces.

... You don't feel alienated when people in your vicinity openly use pejorative language to refer to groups that you belong to (and don't have a choice about), or decry politicians or even pundits that dare to validate your grievances as extremists? You don't feel alienated when it's proposed that your grievances are inherently invalid because of that group belonging? You don't feel alienated by being repeatedly told that said group belonging makes you inherently incapable of "empathy" for various others, even as that same "empathy" is demanded of you? You don't feel alienated by the cultural assumption that a desire for more progressive income taxation, or cleaner energy, dictates a raft of social policies? You don't feel alienated by the entire body of in-group jargon that associates your group membership with negative qualities, or the opposition to language unilaterally deemed to reflect your "privilege" regardless of actual etymology?

If you haven't experienced these things, please let me know where to find the "progressive spaces" you frequent. I don't think I've seen one since at least OWS.