[Workaccount2]

There is a persistent and perhaps fundamental problem of balancing self optimization and social optimization.

A group of people are trudging through the desert with limited water arduously pumped from scattered wells. Do you ration water such that everyone gets equal amounts or such that those sweating the most get the most.

Solve this dilemma accounting for the fractal parameters that go into it, and you'll have a utopia.

[lo_zamoyski]

> balancing self optimization and social optimization

A person in a society has a right to the minimum of essential ordinary resources (food, shelter, clothing) to function as a general matter. (We have a right to pursue other goods, and in some cases a right to them once had, but we cannot say we have a right to them per se and before the fact. We have to be careful to distinguish between the two, as undisciplined and entitled people consumed by appetite tend to be unprincipled and like to inflate the list of “essentials” in self-serving ways. There’s certainly a pathology of envy at work as well, and we should in no way naturalize envy.)

In a situation of scarcity where there isn’t enough for everyone (which does not apply to the developed world), there is no solution that could satisfy that right universally. There is therefore no injustice committed when such basic resources are not distributed accordingly. Whoever gets their share gets it; whoever doesn’t simply doesn’t. You would expect competition here. Now, you could be charitable and self-sacrificial and give up your own share for another, but you have no such obligation to do so, and thus no one has the right to your share. Such charity would be an extraordinary act that transcends mere justice. It is entirely voluntary, even if heroic.

> and you'll have a utopia

Well no, you wouldn’t. This is the fallacy of consumerism and homo economicus. Even if everyone were rich, you would still have plenty of misery. The idea that human well-being is rooted in mere consumption - full stop - is at the root of so many ills. There is no well-being without virtue.

[r0ckarong]

More like most people are dragging a cruise ship through a desert while being baited with the possible opportunity to belong to those enjoying the endless buffets and on-board water park.

This whole "should we ration so everybody gets some" is complete BS. There is an abundance of resources that are concentrated to a few and the rest made to suffer. We don't have to ration, we have to prevent the greedy from hogging it all. It's quite the opposite.

[rixed]

Funny how the choice of an analogy can set bounds to the set of accepted solutions.

Instead of trudging through the desert, or escaping a sinking ship, or surviving in a dog eat dog jungle, I prefer to compare modern society with a large boarding house, where every one has to cooperate a bit to make it work reasonably well.

A poltical philosopher from the XXth century once wrote: "At the end of the day, all we are trying to achieve is a basic level of decency, for which all that's required from citizens is the simple politeness commonly found in any boarding house."

Maybe it's not an optimization problem?

[ath3nd]

> Solve this dilemma accounting for the fractal parameters that go into it, and you'll have a utopia.

Progressive tax on income

Progressive wealth tax

Universal basic income

Universal healthcare

Housing as a human right

Done

[Workaccount2]

Then who pumps the well?

[voisin]

Progressive taxes just mean that at the highest levels more income is going to redistribution. At all other levels there is still incentive to work.