[boothby]

One thing I've learned over the years is that specifically setting out to enjoy and appreciate something on a daily basis is beneficial to overall satisfaction with life. And for me, that's my morning cuppa before the rest of the house wakes up. Is it (just) the coffee or is it (also) the rituals surrounding coffee?

[pauletienney]

Father of three here. I also enjoy very much this moment of the day, the calm before the storm. It was a real motivation to wake up a bit earlier.

One day, I decided to stop coffee for some weeks. My motivation to wake up before my kids vanished in a few days. I was quite surprised since it used to be a real pleasure. I guess the ritual part was much less important than the coffee chemical role.

I got back to coffe quite rapidly.

[dotancohen]

Did you just remove the warm drink part of the ritual or did you replace the coffee with another warm drink? This could be the big difference you were missing.

[teekert]

This is the big question in this comment indeed

[baxtr]

For me, it’s the reward after the storm – once everyone has gone I sit there and enjoy my coffee.

[ycombinete]

Is it the addictive substance or the ritual I created around it?

I used to think this same thing, that my enjoyment of coffee was largely the ritual. But then I switched to decaf for quite a long time and all my little rituals fell away quite quickly.

I still occasionally drank coffee when I felt like the taste, but I certainly wasn’t performing daily morning ritual.

[erikrothoff]

I’ve switched to decaf full time and a my generalised anxiety basically went away. I love coffee and still drink it ritualistically. I probably drink more coffee now, at all hours of the day (caffeinated coffee after 12 really messed my sleep).

Also once per week I allow myself an espresso, and I get a nice buzz from it that lasts the entire day.

[idkwhatiamdoing]

This hits home. For me stopping coffee (and caffeine) consumption was also one building block of taking care of my generalised anxiety disorder. I enjoyed the morning ritual, but it stopped with quitting drinking coffee. Maybe I should give decaf a shot, but I also miss just grabbing a coffee when out with friends (usually tea does not scratch the same itch and is not worth it when everyone else around you is enjoying a great smelling coffee). All I want to say is “Thanks for sharing” I guess. I was able to connect with what you said.

[erikrothoff]

I went to the US recently and was fully prepared to drink caffeine on the trip because of all the cool coffee shops and roasters. But I was amazed that decaf was basically a first-class citizen there. The hotel breakfast had one giant brewer for regular and the same giant brewer for decaf. It was amazing.

And it’s pretty important to realize that well-made decaf doesn’t have to taste worse than regular coffee. James Hoffmanns decaf project proved this for me, and his video about decaf sold me on the idea: decaf drinkers are the OG coffee drinker, drinking it purely for the taste, even without the drug-induced high that caffeine gives you.

https://youtu.be/yYTSdlOdkn0?si=V0xKFGCZR1-YgGmO

[ycombinete]

That’s cool. I’d like to quit again sometime but right now caffeine staves off migraines for me. And with a baby in the house I really don’t have the resources for that battle.

[strogonoff]

When(ever) I quit coffee, I got strong migraines after a day or so. However, they subside and go away after a few more days.

I wouldn’t claim it works the same way for everyone, but the difference between coffee being a treatment for migraines and migraines being a symptom of coffee withdrawal may be indistinguishable in immediate term.

[ycombinete]

Ah yes. I do get those, but also just get migraines (as well as hypnic headaches) which caffeine is a wonder at ameliorating.

I quit caffeine for about 2 years and the headaches never subsided (except the caffeine withdrawal ones of course).

They are just a fact of my life I’m afraid.

As much as I’d like to get off of caffeine I am very grateful to have is as a remedy.

[erikrothoff]

My gf has a migraine head and she’s tried going decaf but it just doesn’t work. Apparently caffeine does a lot to reduce the risk of migraines? So I’d probably just try to lower the dose until you find what works for you.

[ycombinete]

I love the term “migraine head”. I’ve never seen that before. It’s gets across the idea that it’s just the way one’s head is quite nicely!

[port11]

It could also be that the decaf wasn't good? A lot of decaf is poorly roasted and tastes wrong.

[heavyset_go]

It's both. In stronger drug addictions, the ritual itself is rewarding even if there are no drugs present in your system yet.

Add that to conditioned place preference and you have your rewarding coffee ritual.

[ycombinete]

Yes, my morning coffee and cigarette breakfast was the most rewarding ritual. I basically couldn’t start my day without it!

Even though I quite smoking over 10 years ago I still remember it with the fondness of an old friend.

[Libidinalecon]

There is an absolutely huge ritual part to it because I have been trying swap out coffee and just take caffeine pills in the morning to be more exact in my caffeine consumption.

I just can not do it. It is just not the same sitting here without the taste, smell and sensory experience completely divorced from the actual caffeine. That is with even taking more caffeine than I would get from my brew coffee.

[pentaphobe]

I've always associated this sort of life satisfaction & ritual spectrum with Zen "no-mind" [^1]

Whether it's coffee ritual, or doing dishes there's something pretty magical about the quiet flow state of engaging with the moment

[^1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-mind

[reactordev]

It’s 100% the addiction.

It’s ok, me too. At home I’m a 4-6 cup a day drinker. On the go 2-3 Starbucks. I have a serious problem.

[standardUser]

Addiction to any given substance is highly variable from person to person, and there's a lot of data to back that up.

I recall a friend describing their struggle to quit caffeine, which I mocked at first, until I realized it sounded exactly like my brutal struggle to quit nicotine. Yet, plenty of people quit cigarettes effortlessly. Nicotine is one of the most variable, but caffeine, alcohol and cocaine vary widely too. I imagine we'd find this is the case for most substances if we had the data. In a sane world, we'd give every kid their addiction predisposition profile when they turn 13.

[reactordev]

The hardest part of quitting anything is changing the behavioral habits that came with it.

For smoking, I bet you have the urge after a meal to smoke. Maybe you’re triggered when you drive long distances to “calm the nerves”. The issue is those triggers, those behaviors, need to be unlearned before you can attempt to quit. That’s why it’s easy for people who haven’t developed those behavioral habits and hard a hell for those who have. Former smoker myself so I totally get it. I can give that up, but caffeine - coffee? I’ll die with a cup on the counter half full.

[standardUser]

The literature on this is clear cut. People absorb, metabolize and experience drugs differently, which has a big impact on how addiction takes hold. It's obviously not the only factor! But it's a big one and somewhat quantifiable.

Personally, I wasn't a "trigger" smoker, I was an "every chance I got smoker". I assume my nicotine metabolism is higher than average, which is linked to frequency of consumption and hence propensity for addiction. I also assume I have fast caffeine metabolism since I consume it at all hours with no consequence, but unlike nicotine that's linked to a lower propensity for addiction, which matches my experience.

[mrmincent]

That was me too. Turns out I was just self-medicating for adhd. I still skip the meds on the weekend so I can enjoy larger quantities of coffee.

[Muromec]

I'm not gonna lie, double espresso with ritalin before work is pretty good too. It's the T+2 date which is uncool.

[reactordev]

That’s the ritalin. Find a healthier alternative like an energy bar with that double espresso. I find if I stack too much at once, I crash. One cup in the morning when I wake up. One before work right before the meetings. One in the afternoon to keep me fueled until dinner where I let myself gorge on protein and sugars until I crash.

[quaverquaver]

suggest many many cups of 1/3 caffeinated and 2/3 decaf. There are some observed health benefits to even decaf coffee... and its got potassium besides. I drink around 10 of these. lower longer peak. Joy!

[nurettin]

Ritalin is a highly addictive substance that wrecks you, your life and the life of everyone around. Unfortunate that we have one in family.

[dotancohen]

As a parent, tell me more. I have not yet heard this side of the coin.

[zrm]

Ritalin is a chemical relative of amphetamine. In prescribed amounts it's often an effective treatment. In recreational amounts, ask your doctor about ΔFosB:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOSB#DeltaFosB

[nurettin]

Well, I'd say lots of words for how horrible and terrible it is to have Mr. Jekyll and Hyde around. Any specific questions?

[brailsafe]

Same. During the week on meds I find that drinking more than half a litre just provokes unpleasant sweating and makes me feel frantic, some amount of brain fog and occasionally a mild headache, especially if I haven't been chugging water, which I guess is probably what most normal people get from coffee

[enlyth]

People act like addiction is a word with an inherent negative connotation, but that's not the case, you can totally be addicted to healthy behaviours

[rubatuga]

You're confused about the definition of addiction... breathing is an addiction too by your logic

[luqtas]

don't be silly. next stop is to reduce pooping.

but yeah, exercising can be an addiction? as sex. now doing these daily is fine. it turns into addiction when you can't stop or interfere negatively with your routine

[petercooper]

Seems to fall into the difference between "addiction" when used as a common, everyday word, and the alternative medical meaning.

[rubatuga]

Ah, I am a bit biased to the medical meaning

[markus_zhang]

I don't want to get too deep into caffeine addiction so I drink mostly decaffeinated coffee. Am I just cheating myself?

[reactordev]

No, there’s benefits from drinking coffee whether it’s caffeinated or not.

[markus_zhang]

Ah, it’s good to know that. Unfortunately my stomach feels a bit weird after too much coffee. Wish I could drink more.

[lanfeust6]

Not necessarily. I only have one cup in the morning, that's it, but I enjoy it just the same so long as the beans are good and it's done right.

[boothby]

Well, that's a bit of an unfair projection; I'm fairly fastidious about keeping my consumption around 2-3 cups a day before 11am and taking occasional tolerance breaks without consequence. But if you feel like your coffee intake is a problem that you have trouble controlling, maybe cut back.

[reactordev]

It’s my wallet that is angry, my brain still wants more.

[runlaszlorun]

I switched to the cheap stuff and now my palate is angry...

[amelius]

> Starbucks

By the way, why does Starbucks make such bad cappuccinos? The milk is foamy instead of creamy. There is no heart shape or any shape really. And the entire beverage is too hot.

[reactordev]

Blame the barista. The quality has gone down significantly over the last decade. It’s either a tall in a venti cup. A flat white when it should be a white mocha. Or a mocha. In the end, it’s still a quick service restaurant. Training is an expense. Now they just press buttons. If my local cafe could deliver me coffee that would be great, until then I’m short on time and hit the drive thru.

Say this next time: “Cappuccino, whole milk, no foam” and see what they do.

[amelius]

Yeah, one problem is that the person who takes the order is not the person who brews the coffee.

[superkuh]

Caffeine is not chemically addictive. It can lead to depedency but that is not addiction. Motivation and wanting are not altered but unpleasant withdrawl effects can occur.

[_yb2s]

There is no real importance to the concept of “chemically addictive” and it has largely gone out of favor in psychology. Even physical behaviors like gambling and sex that obviously cannot directly, chemically act on reward system pathways, can still be just as life destroying addictive and challenging to quit as any drug. The dsm now classifies gambling disorder as an addiction.

[dist-epoch]

Caffeine, unlike some drugs and alcohol, doesn't cause severe withdrawal symptoms. Because of that, experts don't label regular caffeine use as an addiction.

https://www.webmd.com/diet/caffeine-myths-and-facts

[reactordev]

There’s so many layers to this. First, there’s history: Coka-cola (originally made from a Kola nut and cocaine) was told they couldn’t put cocaine in their “medicine” anymore so they just sold it as a “soft-drink” without the cocaine.

Then there’s the beverage industry who pointed out there’s caffeine in tea leaves and other plant material and that it’s not a threat: (1) US vs 40 barrels and 20 kegs of Coka-cola. Ultimately reducing the amount of caffeine in soft-drinks.

Round and round we go allowing companies to use chemicals to keep us buying their consumables.

(1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Forty_Barrels...

[_yb2s]

While it is a contributing factor, physical dependence- withdrawal is not anymore considered necessary or sufficient for addiction. The author there is using an outdated pre-DSM5 definition of addiction which failed to recognize that there are two separate but related phenomena here. Things like gambling and sex addiction obviously cause no withdrawal symptoms from chemical dependence at all, but can be almost impossible to quit and serious enough to destroy someone’s life.

Severity of withdrawal symptoms from caffeine also varies substantially from person to person. It’s probably not directly killing anyone, but for some people it can be brutally unpleasant and disabling for at least several days.

[tayo42]

How do you explain the headaches and exhaustion durring withdrawal then?

[superkuh]

That's called chemical dependence and it's the point I'm trying to make. Dependence is not addiction. Addiction means wanting is hijacked, not that stopping is aversive.

Addiction and dependence have real medical meanings and in the context of this discussion and we shouldn't mix them up. See this very short and to the point lancet medical journal summary, https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0...

>Addiction (synonymous with substance use disorder), as defined by the DSM-5, entails compulsive use, craving, and impaired control over drug taking in addition to physical dependence. The vast majority of patients taking medications such as opioids and benzodiazepines are doing so as prescribed by clinicians, with only 1·5% of people taking benzodiazepine being addicted, for example. Physical dependence is much more common than addiction. Importantly, withdrawal effects occur irrespective of whether these drugs are taken as prescribed or misused.

>Failure to distinguish between addiction and physical dependence can have real-life consequences. People who have difficulty stopping their medications because of withdrawal effects can be accused of addiction or misuse. Misdiagnosis of physical dependence as addiction can also lead to inappropriate management, including referral to 12-step addiction-based detoxification and rehabilitation centres, focusing on psychological aspects of harmful use rather than the physiology of withdrawal.

>It should be made clear that dependence is not the same as addiction. The problems with prescribed drug dependence are not restricted to the small minority who are misusing or addicted to these drugs, but to the wider population who are physically dependent on and might not be able easily to stop their medications because of withdrawal effects. Antidepressants (superkuh note: and caffeine) should be categorised with other drugs that cause withdrawal syndromes as dependence-forming medications, while noting that they do not cause addiction.

[alexey-salmin]

That's just how life feels without caffeine, not a withdrawal effect.

[dist-epoch]

Caffeine withdrawal takes 2 days.

The explanation for the headaches is that coffee raises blood pressure short term, and the blood vessels in the brain prepare for the predicted caffeine ingestion, and if it doesn't come there will be a mismatch.

[dotancohen]

What triggers the blood vessel constriction on the brain? Will avoiding e.g. certain places at certain hours also avoid the preemptive blood vessel constriction and associated headache?

[reactordev]

Habit. No other outside stimuli. Just you and your habit.

[ses1984]

What’s the point of this distinction, what does it mean that it’s not chemically addictive? It causes withdrawals, dependence, it definitely acts on brain chemistry.

[hirvi74]

A lot of substances cause withdrawals/dependence and act of brain chemistry, e.g., the vast array of psychiatric drugs. However, I have never seen the word addiction used in the context of antidepressants, mood stabilizers, etc..

Even non-psychiatric drugs like NSAIDs, insulin, hypertension medication, etc. can have a withdrawal effect.

I might be mistaken, but I am under the impression that addiction is psychological in nature. Take gambling addiction, for example, I am not certain if there is any physical withdrawal effect, but there is definitely a psychological compulsion.

[superkuh]

"Addiction and physical dependence are not the same thing" https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0...

[_yb2s]

That lancet article very well refutes the point you are trying to make. The term “chemical addiction” is not really used anymore because it really just refers to mechanisms of chemical dependence, which are neither necessary or sufficient to cause addiction on their own.

There has been a major shift in how addiction is understood in modern research, but you have it backwards- your perspective of chemical addiction or direct chemical mechanism being important is the old discredited concept, not the new one, which sees it as a psychological process that requires no direct chemical mechanism at all.

[memen]

The chemical dependence is quite a factor in the psychological process you refer to. It nudges and reinforces this psychological behaviour. You can broaden the definition to include addiction without chemical dependence, but it does not mean you can omit the chemical dependence factor from the equation.

This chemical dependence is often the number one reason people cannot physically stop their psychological process. Potential effects from quitting include simply dying, or with less strong chemical dependence, feeling anxiety or generally ill.

[superkuh]

>That lancet article very well refutes the point you are trying to make.

No. That lancet article very well refutes the point you are trying to make. I'm flabberghasted by your interpretation. Could you please try to support this interpretation with quotes? I can't even begin to understand how to converse with this point of view since such a POV does not exist in the lancet article. I've read it a handful of times and now once again trying to understand you. But it's not there. I recommend you re-read the article.

I have quoted the appropriate bits supporting my, and the articles very title's, claims already in the other comment in this thread and you may refer to it.

[carlmr]

>enjoy and appreciate something on a daily basis is beneficial to overall satisfaction with life.

I'll couch this in a warning that you need to have the money for it, but for me an espresso machine and good grinder was such a great investment.

It's this thing I appreciate a lot every day.

If you're a drip coffee person I guess this won't apply and you can save a few thousand. Although I'd still recommend getting a grinder (not necessarily an expensive espresso worthy one) and good beans then.

[nobodyandproud]

Drip coffee is amazing: A consistent grinder; fresh, light or medium roasted beans protected from oxidation; and a machine that heats the water to the correct brew temperature (190-195 F)is all you need.

The flavor profiles are akin to wines; no decanting required.

Extremely enjoyable in the early morning moments.

[port11]

Espresso is my soft spot given my origins, but a good drip on paper filters (to remove some oils and cholesterol) is akin to good tea, full of aromatics. I disagree with the temperature, for me a blonde roast calls for 72 degrees Celsius (162F).

[nobodyandproud]

To be accurate, I should qualify that for me it’s “light/medium” and not a true blonde roast.

I haven’t had the pleasure of trying to brew my own blonde roast yet.

But I was amazed when I first tried a black coffee brewed properly, and it took me far longer than I want to admit to learn the basic nuances; it was a very fun journey though.

[port11]

Exactly, and a lot of people that don't like black coffee never had a solid experience: a cup full of aromatics — like tea — instead of just burnt, bitter, over-heated slurry.

[ndsipa_pomu]

I'm a hater of drip coffee as it almost always contains under-extracted (outside of cone) and over-extracted (middle of cone) coffee. You're correct about the importance of brew temperature, although I take issue with the strange units you use.

For me, full immersion brewing is the best as it's far easier to control than expresso - you can fine-tune the water temperature, the grind size and the brew time until you get coffee that astonishes people. Personally, I'm a big Aeropress fan, though I don't know why so many people make horrible coffee using french presses. I think most french press coffee I've drunk has had far too little coffee or too much water in the brew.

[nobodyandproud]

If you mean the temperature is slightly too low, then yes. I was going by memory, then subtracted by five second-guessing myself.

Pyramiding the grind works-around the problem well-enough for me, however.

[ndsipa_pomu]

I wasn't complaining about the actual temperature (I tend to 80°C water for my Aeropress brews), but the use of freedom units.

I'm sure there's ways to make quality drip coffee, but all the drip coffee that I've had has been very poor. I've also lost count of the number of times that I see people using boiling water for making coffee.

To my mind, it's easy to get obsessive over making good coffee, but what I'd like to see is just more people knowing how to not make bad coffee. If you're thinking about water temperature and pyramiding the grounds, then you're likely making great coffee.

[shevy-java]

One could say the same about any drug. :D

I try to not let taste or smell overrule other decisions made by my brain. Of course it is so visceral that one can not escape it; some stinky fish challenges show how powerful smell is. Some people can not control their body's reactions to bad smell.

[pr3dr49]

It's the only time of the day that's mine. Morning coffee and me. Silence, taste, and treasured bouquet. Sanctuary.

The last 20th century vice. It's mine.

[dustbunny]

I used to have withdrawal symptoms when I didn't have coffee, now I don't have those. But yes, the alone time in the morning is critical for me.

[Desafinado]

My wife and I don't drink caffeine anymore but still have a swiss water decaf coffee every morning.

The caffeine aspect is completely unnecessary, but coffee still tastes good, warm drinks are still nice. It's all the ritual.

[pton_xd]

I also enjoy my morning ritual of preparing the grinds and brewing a fresh pot. But I'll be honest, at the end of the day it doesn't really matter where I get it -- brunch at a nice restaurant, Starbucks, McDonalds, a cheap hotel buffet, lukewarm from a flight attendant ... as long as I get it. Sounds healthy, right?! ;)

[amelius]

Coffee in the morning is especially good because it induces bowel movements.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/30/well/eat/why-does-coffee-...

[RobRivera]

Ah yes, the Twin Peaks method