[dr_dshiv]

> I find it very appealing to consider the idea that the world is not somehow running “hidden mathematics”, somewhere and somehow, to solve some complicated equations in a seemingly magical way, but rather, that things are radically simpler, in that the world is simply implementing a set of trivially simple rules. The world is not concerned with, or made with mathematics, mathematics just emerges, with inherent and irreducible complexity, from extreme simplicity.

Wouldn’t those simple rules be mathematics? It’s very hard for me to see how the world isn’t made of math. Then again, I am a Pythagorean.

[ui23]

Mathematics is just a tool, like language, for describing reality, not reality itself.

A cake is not made of numbers like 5 cups flour + 3 eggs, but we can model it as such. In principle we could invent any such system of symbols to describe the physical world but those symbols don’t define it. The physical world only nudges us toward what symbols work and which don’t.

[dr_dshiv]

Strawman. You are claiming math isn’t real?

[ui23]

Not a strawman. I’m not stating that math isn’t real. It’s real as an abstract framework that humans create and refine. It’s not, however, foundational to the physical world in the way fundamental particles or gravity is. Numbers and equations don’t push particles around, they simply help us represent that kind of phenomena that we observe.

[dr_dshiv]

So spheres are invented by humans? In another universe, there are no spheres or triangles?

[mrguyorama]

There is a distinction between "What the universe is made of or how it works just happens to be really compatible with how math describes things" and "The universe is just "running" math and we discovered that math and use it for other things"

But like, words stop working at these levels of rigor.

What the hell does "The universe is made of math" mean? How can something be made of a field of study? Where is the "Addition" particle? How does 1+1=2 give rise to what we see as an electron?

Like it's bad enough dealing with "quantum fields" that might be "real" or maybe are just really nice mathematical objects that happen to be useful for calculating the future.

Does math take up space? Does space take up math? Does blue afraid of seven? Can I eat integrals or will they go straight to my thighs?

If the universe is "made of" math, what is the consequence? For example, the consequence of being made of "quantum fields" in my lay mind is that we get observations like entanglement and the hilarity of whatever is going on in the higgs field.

>Then again, I am a Pythagorean.

Ah, let me just move this sqrt(2) out of the way real quick :P

I want simple rules because I am a simple man, and if those simple rules happen to actually be math, that sucks for me because the "simple rules" are really hard math.

[dr_dshiv]

Pythagoras almost certainly was misinterpreted.

Unsayable numbers (the way the Greeks said irrational numbers) can take the wrong meaning. Like, why are they unsayable? Because you’d die before you could say them. Well, it’s not a threat!

Then it turns into this whole ahistorical fabrication impugning Pythagoras who was, otherwise, pretty much the most incredible guy ever.

Now, the “addition particle” is a strawman, but harder to deal with is just numbers. Are numbers real? Are there discrete “things” in the universe? Well, yes there are. Frequencies or quanta do just fine. Now, when there are numbers, they can be added, whether we want to or not.

Another example would be geometries. Are spheres real? Surely! Do they exist on any planet in the universe? It would seem. Are there any perfect spheres? Nope. Do they precede matter and energy? It would seem.

I think we are saying the same thing. Unfortunately, these beliefs are slippery and metaphysical. I take pride, though, in the pythagoreanness of so many of the scientific greats, from Newton to Penrose.