[goalieca]

There’s too much emphasis on career growth into leadership. I know so many programmers who simply want to solve the trickiest of technical problems, do good work they can feel proud of, and go home to their families. They want stability more than anything.

[TimTheTinker]

There are rare software companies where this is exactly what programmers do. The pay is lower than at FAANG & SV/LA/NYC startups, but work-life balance is great, stability is great, and most of all they get to just focus on doing great work. It's not about making quarterly goals, it's about stewarding (or perhaps gardening) a software project for many years. Engineers grow a lot from all the deep, focused feature work and problem solving.

I worked at such a place for 15 years. The downsides for me were lower pay, no equity, and not getting broad industry experience. I ended up leaving, and I now make a lot more money, but I do miss it.

[mh2266]

Google lets people stay at L4 forever and Meta does at L5 with no expectation of further growth.

Yes the expectations are probably still higher, but these companies don’t expect everyone to grow past “mostly self-sufficient engineer” as the parent comment suggests, and for people that do want to do that there’s a full non-management path to director-equivalent IC levels. My impression is that small companies are more likely to treat management as a promotion rather than as a lateral move to a different track (whenever I hear “promoted to manager” I kinda shudder)

[cweld510]

Depends on the team — managing can be quite a bit more scope than being a senior IC, depending on expectations for that role. You have broader ownership of technical outcomes over time, even aside from the extra responsibility for growing a team. Managers have all the responsibility of a senior engineer plus more. In that way manager feels to me like a clear promotion to me. Manager vs staff eng, maybe not though.

[mh2266]

Management not being a promotion doesn’t mean that managers aren’t (usually—I’ve both been at equal and higher levels than my managers at times) higher levels than their reports. It means that switching to a management role from IC is never a promotion itself (ie always L6 -> M1 in Google/Meta levels) and it never comes with any difference in compensation.

[astrange]

I haven't been a manager, but my understanding is that the higher IC roles assume you're competent enough to do some management-like things if needed ("responsibility without control"), and I also assume that being a manager helps with compensation because they actually teach you how the review process works and let you into the calibration meetings.

[zem]

the saddest thing is that it used to be possible to do it at at least some of the megacorps too. "senior engineer" (one level below staff) was widely accepted as an "I have reached as high as I want to in my career, and just want to work on interesting problems now", you would basically never get a raise other than cost-of-living but you could do your work and go home and live your life too. that's still doable to an extent but the recurring layoffs have added a measure of precarity to the whole situation so now you have to care more about all the self promotion and "being seen to be doing something" aspects of the job a lot more than you used to.

[Inityx]

Do they even do cost-of-living raises anymore? When I was at FAANG, my raises in the same role didn't even match inflation.

[ergocoder]

My raises never matched inflation but then my compensation is like 700k a year. I don't know whether my raise needs to match the cost of living increase.

[zem]

good point, it was often less than inflation, so a very nominal sort of raise

[yyyyuuuuiiiii]

When I last worked at a FAANG I was very clear on exactly what they had to pay me to put up with their bullshit (I happen to be independently wealthy). This kind of “nominal raise” below inflation actually meant my salary went down, so I quit.

[goodolddays9090]

How did you know you're independently wealthy enough to do this? I'm at a stage where I'm sort of there and getting more and more annoyed by large organizational BS, but I keep thinking "one more year is that much more of a buffer."

Funny enough, it happened because of the 2022 layoffs. I figured I'd be fine (and was), but it made me go though the math and realized I was close to escape velocity. On one hand, it made getting excited about uninteresting work that much harder, but because I wasn't quite there with enough buffer, the bad job market still gave me anxiety.

[johnnyanmac]

Not in 2025, sadly. Those kinds of companies are the first to freeze hiring and some probably won't make it through the storm.

It would be nice to have that, though. But my industry isn't known for stability to begin with.

[tayo42]

What interesting problems have you solved recently?

[TimTheTinker]

Shipping the frontend for features in a core product area on a large team, just like a lot of other devs here :)

To go into specifics of actual problems solved and do so intelligibly, I'd have to provide specific context, which I'm not comfortable doing here.

It's a lot easier to describe "interesting problems solved" using less identifiable (and more generally interesting) details if one is in platform/infra and/or operating at a Staff+ level -- both of which I have been in the past (and loved it), but am not at the moment.

[LtWorf]

Most people are under NDAs

[twojacobtwo]

I'm pretty sure no one is going to be hunting down NDA infractions on HN unless the poster is silly enough to give specifics about the workplace and time at which they solved the problem. If it takes some kind of investigative work to piece together the most basic details, I think that's within the terms of most NDAs anyway.

[mh-]

One of the last times I commented in a thread like this, someone looked at my profile (which has my real name), found me on LinkedIn, and then posted my employer's name in a reply to me, calling out an alleged conflict of interest (you can find it in my comment history and make a decision on that for yourself, if you're curious).

It's not worth the internet points for any of us to post details beyond what we do.

[LtWorf]

I think no equity isn't necessarily worse than equity followed by bankruptcy :D

[mh2266]

Google’s terminal level is one past new grad and it has a full parallel non-management IC track, I don’t think that they’re pushing people that hard into leadership roles.

[proc0]

That's precisely why programmers become programmers. It baffles me that tech careers put most on a leadership track when people study CS for many years for a reason. Why would I want to throw those technical skills away.

[raw_anon_1111]

Sure they exists. There is even a term for it. By definition you never hear about them.

https://www.hanselman.com/blog/dark-matter-developers-the-un...

[venturecruelty]

You mean if everyone works really hard, we can't all be CEOs? :(

[jebarker]

Anyone can be a CEO, just start a company.

[venturecruelty]

So we don't need anyone to teach or clean toilets? We can all work our way up and be fabulously rich?

[jebarker]

I'm not sure how you got that from my comment. CEO is a job title that is easy to get, that was my only point.

[johnnyanmac]

If everyone wanted that, sure. But many people don't (I sure don't), and many people that do will fail. Because "working hard" is relative.

And that's ignoring the inherent inequality of birthright.

[raw_anon_1111]

And then what happens when you are looking for your next job and you get a behavioral interview question and all you can say is “I pulled Jira tickets off the board for a decade”?

[goalieca]

Yeah. Everyone wants to know some cross functional initiative that you led and the exact business value of it.

[throwaway173738]

No, when I ask those questions I want to know how you think about your role and whether you take any ownership of anything or whether you just bumble through as the winds take you.