[deltaburnt]

I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone seriously argue that personal throwaway projects need thorough code reviews of their vibe code. The problem comes in when I’m maintaining a 20 year old code base used by anywhere from 1M to 1B users.

In other words you can’t vibe code in an environment where evaluating “does this code work” is an existential question. This is the case where 7k LOC/day becomes terrifying.

Until we get much better at automatically proving correctness of programs we will need review.

[adriand]

My point about my experience with this plugin isn’t that it’s a throwaway or meaningless project. My point is that it might be enough in some cases to verify output without verifying code. Another example: I had to import tens of thousands of records of relational data. I got AI to write the code for the import. All I verified was that the data was imported correctly. I didn’t even look at the code.

[deltaburnt]

In this context I meant throwaway as "low stakes" not "meaningless". Again, evaluating the output of a database import like that could be existensial for your company given the context. Not to mention there's many cases where evaluating the output isn't feasible for a human.

[nilkn]

Human code review does not prove correctness. Almost every software service out there contains bugs. Humans have struggled for decades to reliably produce correct software at scale and speed. Overall, humans have a pretty terrible track record of producing bug-free correct code no matter how much they double-check and review their code along the way.

[cyphar]

So the solution is to stop doing code reviews and just YOLO-merge everything? After all, everything is fucked already, how much worse could it get?

For the record, there are examples where human code review and design guidelines can lead to very low-bug code. NASA published their internal guidelines for producing safety-critical code[1]. The problem is that the development cost of software when using such processes is too high for most companies, and most companies don't actually produce safety-critical software.

My experience with the vast majority of LLM code submitted to projects I maintain is that it has subtle bugs that I managed to find through fairly cursory human review. The copilot code review feature on GitHub also tends to miss actual bugs and report nonexistent bugs, making it worse than useless. So in my view, the death of the benefits of human code review have been wildly exaggerated.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_10:_Rules_for_Dev...

[nilkn]

No, that's not what I wrote, and it's not the correct conclusion. What I wrote (and what you, in fact, also wrote) is that in reality we generally do not actually need provably correct software except in rare cases (e.g., safety-critical applications). Suggesting that human review cannot be reduced or phased out at all until we can automatically prove correctness is wrong, because fully 100% correct and bug-free software is not needed for the vast majority of code being produced. That does not mean we immediately throw out all human review, but the bar for making changes for how we review code is certainly much lower than the above poster suggested.

[deltaburnt]

I don't really buy your premise. What you're suggesting is that all code has bugs, and those bugs have equal severity and distribution regardless of any forethought or rigor put into the code.

You're right, human review and thorough design are a poor approximation of proving assumptions about your code. Yes bugs still exist. No you won't be able to prove the correctness of your code.

However, I can pretty confidently assume that malloc will work when I call it. I can pretty confidently assume that my thoroughly tested linked list will work when I call it. I can pretty confidently assume that following RAII will avoid most memory leaks.

Not all software needs meticulous careful human review. But I believe that the compounding cost of abstractions being lost and invariants being given up can be massive. I don't see any other way to attempt to maintain those other than human review or proven correctness.

[nilkn]

I did suggest all code has bugs (up to some limit -- while I wasn't careful to specify this, as discussed above, there does exist an extraordinary level of caution and review that if used can approximate perfect bug-free code, as in your malloc example and in the example of NASA, but that standard is not currently applied to 99.9% of human-generated and human-reviewed code, and it doesn't need to be). I did not suggest anything else you said I suggested, so I'm not sure why you made those parts up.

"Not all software needs meticulous careful human review" is exactly the point. The question of exactly what software needs that kind of review is one whose answer I expect to change over the next 5-10 years. We are already at the point where it's so easy to produce small but highly non-trivial one-off applications that one needn't examine the code at all -- I completely agree with the above poster that we're rapidly discovering new examples of software development where output-verification is all you need, just like right now you don't hand-inspect the machine code generated by your compiler. The question is how far that will be able to go, and I don't think anybody really knows right now, except that we are not yet at the threshold. You keep bringing up examples where the stakes are "existential", but you're underestimating how much software development does not have anything close to existential stakes.