[venturecruelty]

It's the cargo cult kayfabe of it all. People do it because Google used to do it, now it's just spread like a folk religion. But nobody wants guilds or licensure, so we have to make everyone do a week-long take-home and then FizzBuzz in front of a very awkward committee. Might as well just read chicken bones, at least that would be less humiliating.

[nradov]

And who would write the guild membership or licensure criteria? How much should those focus on ReactJS versus validation criteria for cruise missile flight control software?

[throwup238]

Guild members? Who else?

You’re asking these rhetorical questions as if we haven’t had centuries of precedent here, both bad and good. How does the AMA balance between neurosurgeons and optometrists? Bar associations between corporate litigators and family estate lawyers? Professional engineering associations between civil engineers and chemical engineers?

[shagie]

> Professional engineering associations between civil engineers and chemical engineers?

One takes the FE exam ( https://ncees.org/exams/fe-exam/ ). You will note at the bottom of the page "FE Chemical" and "FE Civil" which are two different exams.

Then you have an apprenticeship for four years as an Engineer in Training (EIT).

Following, that, you take the PE exam. https://ncees.org/exams/pe-exam/ You will note that the PE exams are even more specialized to the field.

Depending on the state you are licensed in (states tend to have reciprocal licensing - but not necessarily and not necessarily for all fields). For example, if you were licensed in Washington, you would need to pass another exam specific to California to work for a California firm.

Furthermore, there is the continuing education requirements (that are different for each state). https://www.pdhengineer.com/pe-continuing-education-requirem...

You have to take 30 hours of certified study in your field across every two years. This isn't a lot, but people tend to fuss about "why do CS people keep being expected to learn on our own?" ... Well, if we were Professional Engineers it wouldn't just be an expectation - it would be a requirement to maintain the license. You will again note the domain of the professional development is different - so civil and mechanical engineers aren't necessarily taking the same types of classes.

These requirements are set by the state licensure and part of legislative processes.

[throwup238]

So what you’re saying is that it’s a solved problem. If we can figure out how to safely certify both bridge builders and chemical engineers working with explosives, we can figure out a way to certify both React developers and those working on cruise missile flight control software.

[shagie]

I'm saying the idea that you can do one test for software engineering and never have to study again or be tested on a different domain in the future isn't something that professional engineering licensure solves.

Furthermore, licensure requires state level legislation and makes it harder for employees (especially the EIT) to change jobs or move to other states for work there.

Licensure, the way that people often point to it as a way to solve the credentials problem vs interviews, isn't going to solve the problems that people think it would.

Furthermore, it is only something if there is a reason to do it. If there isn't a reason to have a licensed engineer signing off on designs and code there isn't a reason for a company to hire such.

Why should a company pay more for someone with a license to design their website when they could hire someone more cheaply who doesn't have a license? What penalties would a company have for having a secretary do some vbscripting in excel or a manager use Access rather than hiring a licensed developer?

[nradov]

You seem to be confused. The AMA doesn't control physician licensing. That's done by state medical boards.

But are you suggesting we have separate licenses for every different type of developer? We have new types coming up every few years.

The whole idea of guilds for developers is just stupid and impractical. It could never work on any long term or large scale basis.

[throwup238]

Good catch on the AMA. I should have said medical licensing boards.

> But are you suggesting we have separate licenses for every different type of developer? We have new types coming up every few years.

I didn’t suggest that at all and I honestly can’t figure out how you came to that interpretation unless you are hallucinating.

> The whole idea of guilds for developers is just stupid and impractical. It could never work on any long term or large scale basis.

What a convincing argument! You should get a cabinet post.

[ThrowawayR2]

Guilds and licensure perform gatekeeping, by definition, and the more useful they are at providing a good hiring signal, the more people get filtered out by the gatekeeping. So there's no support for it because everyone is afraid that effective guilds or licensing would leave them out in the cold.

[johnnyanmac]

Yeah, I'd be more than fine with licensing if I didn't have to keep going through 5 rounds of trivia only to be ghosted. Let me do that once and show I can code my way out of a paper bag.