[zelphirkalt]

This is of course a process, that does not lend itself to be democratic, because it is way longer than most people's attention span. People don't manage to remember things that happened in politics 4 years ago in their own country. Now they are required to follow up on dozens of shitty proposals, all probably illegal in their own country, and those don't even happen in their own country? That divides the number of people, who even start looking into this stuff by a factor of 1000 or so.

[mejutoco]

Is there a website that tracks these? That would be a nice divulgation process.

[rbehrends]

There is the Parliament's legislative train website [1]. However, it only tracks actual legislative steps, not the intra-Council negotiations, so the proposal's page appears to be have been largely inactive since 2024 [2].

[1] https://www.europarl.europa.eu/legislative-train/

[2] https://www.europarl.europa.eu/legislative-train/theme-a-new...

[GeoAtreides]

what do you mean, a slow bureaucracy is a democratic bureaucracy. the last thing you want is a highly efficient bureaucracy enacting change quickly.

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[ekianjo]

There is nothing democratic about the process. It's all unelected politicians ruling for you

[GeoAtreides]

I was making a joke (and referencing a book); that being said, you're wrong, no unelected politicians are ruling for me or any other european citizen.

[Am4TIfIsER0ppos]

Which politicians ran on a platform of "we are going to spy on you"? I guess all of them do.

[wongarsu]

"unelected politicians" and "politicians that do things outside their campaign promises" are very different claims

[iso1631]

Which ones are unelected - the democratically elected heads of the member state governments? Or the democratically elected members of the EU parliament?

Or the commissioners that are appointed by the democratically elected heads of the member state governments?

[ekianjo]

> are appointed by the democratically elected heads

Appointed, so, not elected. Thanks for answering.

[iso1631]

Same way as the executive in the westminster system is appointed.

[surgical_fire]

I tried the same questions on multiple different threads, to multiple different imbeciles posting the same bullshit.

You will never get an answer from them. But we should keep asking it anyway.

I always wondered if they live on the EU and are genuinely too stupid to understand how the bloc their country joined works or, most likely, live outside of it and the idea of the EU as a political entity offends their sensibilities or heighten their anxiety.

[wnoise]

The commissioners?

[iso1631]

Take Magnus Brunner, responsible for Internal Affairs and Migration. The Austrian Government, headed by Karl Nehammer at the time I believe, provided him.

The head of the EU, who was nominated by the Austrian Government (and the other 26 governments) and elected by the MEPs in parliament (who were directly elected) decided on his portfolio.

Compare this to the US system, where the head of the US executive is elected by electors who themselves are directly elected. That head then appoints whoever they want.

If you were to make the US reflect the EU, you would have

1) Senate nominates the president (one vote per state)

2) Congress votes for the president

3) Senate provides the people to be secretaries

4) President selects from that list and chooses which person gets head of State, head of Treasury, etc

This would give more power to the states and less to the federal level, which itself is something many in the US want. Doesn't make it undemocratic.

[scrollaway]

People’s attention span has decreased to a matter of days now, if not hours. Have you seen how quickly front page news in the US is forgotten?

The democratic process needs a revamp but it shouldn’t be driven by the general populations attention span.

[ahsillyme]

I wouldn't be so sure of that assertion regarding attention span. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralistic_ignorance granted, it's about opinion rather than capability but the same bias would explain such a reflexive judgment, and such a judgment will have negative consequences if it is false. (Consensus can be shaped, as can the perception of consensus be.)

[squigz]

People on average are really not that stupid and are absolutely capable of looking back a few years for context.

[zelphirkalt]

Tell me more about that, while here in Germany people again and again vote against their own interest (AfD, CDU, SPD, and all the other corrupt and inept politicians and parties) and the mainstream parties have not managed to improve our situation for some 4-5 election cycles. Tell me more about that, while looking at the US. I am quite sure many other countries can be added to this list.

[squigz]

It's easy to reach for the "people are stupid" argument.

It's harder to ask, "Why are people still voting for this despite it seemingly being against their interests"

But once you do start asking that question, you'll find "they're just stupid" isn't really the only answer. At least 1 other answer would be they're responding to politics of other parties failing them too.

Is it the most rational decision for those people? No, probably not, but ignoring their motivations and chalking it up to stupidity or whatnot is really not going to solve anything - and, in fact, is only going to push those people further into what they believe. You should consider whether that's what you want.

[zelphirkalt]

Depends on how you define "stupid". In many cases you could say "unaware" or "forgetful" instead of "stupid". And mind, I did not say "stupid". That's a word you threw into this.

As to why they still vote like they do:

(1) Because every 4 years the mainstream party promise to solve some problems, netting votes of the young, gullible, or inexperienced voters.

(2) Promise pension increase, netting votes of the ever increasing amount of old people, most who don't care about who or what comes after them.

(3) People are too busy, burned out, or lazy (we still have it too good here, it seems), and cannot be arsed to inform themselves before elections. We also have tons of people, who are truly learning-resistant, right out of school or "university".

(4) People think, that SPD, CDU, Greens, etc. are the only way to stop AfD.

I think we are not very high on the democratic-ability scale. Yes, we vote every 4 years, but it is more like collectively we don't really care enough to inform ourselves properly and just check a few boxes, because we want to tell ourselves, that at least we did vote and that we are fine democratic citizen.

And look, I myself am not frequently reading all parties' positions. And I myself inform myself more shortly before an election, rather than all the time. But I do have a feeling for corruption and I don't always forget scandals that happen, when the next engagement-optimized news headline comes in. I still remember Rezo's "Zerstoerung der CDU" video. I remember reading those abgeordnetenwatch newsletters about the lobby register. Or the foodwatch newsletters about Kloeckner and the Lebensmittelampel. That's why I will not vote for mainstream-promise-a-lot-but-no-delivery parties and retired people clubs. And what more I do, is to use the Wahlomat, and actually check which party's position aligns most with my own.

I don't do too much either, but most people do way less to inform themselves. They just check a box out of habit. Why they vote for CDU/SPD? Because that's what they always did. It's real friggin dumb.

[DangitBobby]

We clearly live in different worlds.

[squigz]

Maybe that says more about your biases than it does about the intelligence of 8 billion people though.

[DangitBobby]

I'm not sure what factual basis you have for your optimism. I have plenty for my pessimism about human nature and our ability to competently govern ourselves as well as our general moral fortitude. We've gotten this far because we've been playing life on easy mode with a ridiculously nurturing planet and practically unlimited energy available under the ground, but we aren't smart enough or forward thinking enough to take on the minor pain necessary to avoid the catastrophe we are lumbering towards. We are short-sighted, selfish, self-important, and we haven't earned the regard in which we hold ourselves.

Regarding your specific point about using recent context to inform political opinions, if you spend any amount of time listening to the opinions of people online you'll find that not only do they fail to accurately recall past events, but they don't bother to research what actually happened, and when they do they fail at anything but the most superficial political analysis.

[squigz]

> We've gotten this far because we've been playing life on easy mode with a ridiculously nurturing planet and practically unlimited energy available under the ground, but we aren't smart enough or forward thinking enough to take on the minor pain necessary to avoid the catastrophe we are lumbering towards. We are short-sighted, selfish, self-important, and we haven't earned the regard in which we hold ourselves.

Where's your "factual basis" for such assertions?

> Regarding your specific point about using recent context to inform political opinions, if you spend any amount of time listening to the opinions of people online you'll find that not only do they fail to accurately recall past events, but they don't bother to research what actually happened, and when they do they fail at anything but the most superficial political analysis.

1) People regularly online are a rather specific group

2) People sharing their opinions online are a very specific group

3) Basing your views on society at large on opinions of those groups is a risky strategy, especially given how easy it has become to spread propaganda online

Anyway as for my optimism, it's based on actually interacting with people directly. Having discussions with them. Talking to them about what they believe, and why. They're usually a lot more complex and intelligent than those various descriptors used above.

[zelphirkalt]

Now one could counter equally, that people you interact with directly are:

(a) limited in number due to the nature of your interaction with them

(b) will express themselves differently, due to the nature of interaction. (Just like people expressing themselves online act differently.)

(c) are probably also a very specific group or bubble, which is simply the people you get to interact with. Which _might_ be more varied than the other person online, but might also be less varied. Really depends on how you pick the people you interact with.

(d) Anecdote of one person N=1 is not really a good factual basis for other people.

So if you want to show how your view is more based on evidence, then you will have to do better than anecdote and no links to statistics or cases we can peruse.

[basisword]

>> that does not lend itself to be democratic, because it is way longer than most people's attention span

The attention span of the general public _shouldn't_ matter. That's why we elect politicians.

[forgetfulness]

That could still be democratic in principle if it weren’t for lobbyists

If legislative processes are so drawn out and complex that no more than a handful of ordinary citizens could keep track of them, the advantage that paid lobbyists have over the public is enormous

[saubeidl]

That's where Unions and NGOs come in. Their job is to be lobbyists for the people, against corporate power.

[Xelbair]

Is the process democratic if citizen's opinions are irrelevant?

No matter who's in charge, no matter the election results, no matter the protests - the same style of legislation is pushed.

and once something's in it is almost impossible to remove.

[iso1631]

That describes pretty much every democratic government in the world, from the USA to New Zealand

[graemep]

> The attention span of the general public _shouldn't_ matter. That's why we elect politicians.

It would work if we could elect politicians who were both competent and trustworthy.

Of course that would require successfully electing people who are competent about a broad range of issues, able to see through well funded and clever lobbying, unblinded by ideology, and able to resist pressure.