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by iLemming 207 days ago
None of this even remotely true. I've gotten into Clojure without knowing jackshit about Java, almost ten years later, after tons of things successfully built and deployed, still don't know jackshit about Java. Mia, co-host of 'Clojure apropos' podcast was my colleague, we've worked together on multiple teams, she learned Clojure as her very first PL. Later she tried learning some Java and she was shocked how impossibly weird it looked compared to Clojure. Besides, you can use Clojure without any JVM - e.g., with nbb. I use it for things like browser automation with Playwright.

The tooling story is also very solid - I use Emacs, but many of my friends and colleagues use IntelliJ, Vim, Sublime and VSCode, and some of them migrated to it from Atom.
1 comments
7thaccount 207 days ago
It might not be a problem for you, but it has been for many. I did start by reading through 3 Clojure books. The repl and the basic stuff like using lists is all easy of course, but the tooling was pretty poor compared to what I was used to (I like lisp, but Emacs is a commitment). Also, a lot of tutorials at the time definitely assumed java familiarity, especially with debugging java stack traces.
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iLemming 206 days ago
> It might not be a problem for you, but it has been for many

Do you have a habit of referring to yourself in plural, or do you typically like to generalize things based on your personal experiences?

I personally know many Clojurists who never had problems you're describing - hundreds of people. Sure, that could be the case of survivorship bias, perhaps I just don't befriend people who struggled with getting into Clojure specifically in a way you're describing. But like they say: "Those who are willing to make the effort will find the solutions. Those who aren't will find the excuses."

Clojure undeniably had challenges in the past, and still has some today. But not the things you're talking about. This is literally not an exaggeration - it's as easy as installing Calva extention for VSCode - that's all one needs to mess around with Clojure.

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7thaccount 205 days ago
I've had this discussion here on HN several times over the years. Lots of comments from others have pointed out similar experiences. I'm guessing your experience was more positive and that's great to hear.

I did point out that maybe things had changed a good bit (literally said maybe VSCode made that easier now as it has for other tools) and tried to make it clear that my experience was a bit dated.

As far as excuses go, I don't see how that's relevant. I just pointed out I had issues with a steep learning curve when I was seriously considering it many years ago along with other languages that are hosted on the JVM (Scala, Kotlin) or .NET (F#). Nothing against those languages, but all the tutorials and even many of the books at the time would frequently borrow from the host language in weird ways. Like I'd have to use some random Java library and when it didn't work, had no idea how to troubleshoot why it wasn't there and I didn't want to have to go learn Java first.

I own at least two books on F# and talked with some prominent authors personally and they admitted it was really geared towards intermediate or greater C# users who wanted to move over to functional programming. I could have stuck with it, but decided to stick with other tools.

Clojure certainly is nice and I wanted to take advantage of it...it just ended up not being as ergonomic for my needs as I had hoped.

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