[HeinzStuckeIt]

If you read journalism about why women are frustrated with dating today, one of the number-one complaints is that the men they are meeting are “flaky”, women can’t trust that the man will be there for her. Your depiction that “women don’t really need men” completely misses the current trend that this thread is about.

[mrguyorama]

> complaints is that the men they are meeting are “flaky”, women can’t trust that the man will be there for her.

No, that's not a complaint that the "modern" man isn't some sort of 1950s provider, it's a complaint that he does not text back. Everyone on the apps suffers from ghosting. It's exhausting because you have to be "On" in 100% of your interactions and texts but there's only like a 2% chance it will continue in any shape no matter what you do.

Even the "tradwife" trend is not actually harkening back to the 50s and a strong provider man, and instead lionizes a reality that never existed and is much more about wanting to check out of the rat race that harms us all. These women do not want to be a 1950s homemaker, they just want to focus on their hobbies and not worry about money.

[survirtual]

I never said women don't need men, did I? Let me read what I said again.

No, I never said that. I said women need safety, and society is largely not safe for them.

Human beings are social creatures. Women need men. Women need women. Men need women. Men need men. We all need each other.

The system patterns of online dating cultivate undesirable traits in both men and women which result in side effects that no one would want. "Flakiness" is one such side effect.

Online dating dynamics create high abundance, low commitment environments that systematically produce “flakiness,” so the issue isn’t about women needing men or not, but that both sexes operate in a degraded safety/trust landscape shaped by platform incentives rather than by real world social cues. Restore actual interpersonal safety and the entire pattern shifts positive, with less defensive behavior, less attrition, less pain, and more ethical orgasms.

All people, regardless of gender, should cultivate a safety in both society and in themselves. This safety is liberating. Instead of controlling people, you free them. Instead of binding, you uplift. Instead of harming, you heal. This is the basis of safety.

[HeinzStuckeIt]

Perhaps one of the problems with modern dating is that women expect a man to provide safety, but many men don’t want to be viewed as a source of safety? Me, I am only interested in relationship for companionship, someone with whom I can share interesting experiences, because joy is not complete unless it is shared. But when it comes to safety and security, a partner is on her own. That’s not to say that I wouldn’t do this or that for a partner, but it would be supererogatory. My male friends have a similar complaint, this isn’t just a HN thing.

Again, this is probably an outcome of modernity. I likely wouldn’t think this way as a man, if I didn’t grow up in a modern age hearing that women are strong, they can take care of themselves and no longer depend on men.

[survirtual]

We're speaking to different things.

Safety doesn't mean you're a provider. It means you are safe to be authentic with. Safe to share truth with.

That safety takes many forms.

You cannot have depth without that safety. It is physical, it is also emotional and intellectual.

For instance, without safety a partner would never join you on many interesting experiences. If you want those experiences, they need to be able to trust you.

Now extend that idea of safety to a broad society context, and that is approaching what I was speaking to.

[HeinzStuckeIt]

The safety I have heard demanded directly from women to me as a partner – or from female friends about the man they seek – is the safety of being a provider, giving them a feeling of security that they can’t manage to achieve on their own. It’s not just about a man being safe to be with. Again, you are speaking about something I haven’t heard from actual women, and I think I’ll trust the latter (and reportage matching it) over a HN stranger for forming my assumption of what women want from relationships.

And again, maybe part of why women might be having problems with dating is that many men today don’t want to be seen as a big emotional support for a partner either. That’s draining and time-consuming. This might bother you, but my whole point is that the social pressures are no longer there to compel men (or women) to act a certain way, and that is impacting dating.

[jrflowers]

> from women to me as a partner – or from female friends about the man they seek

How many people are you talking about here? Like if you had to rephrase this point using numbers would you say “I’ve heard half a dozen women say this”?

That aside, can you elaborate on safety as a demand? I’ve never had a partner or friend demand safety from me, ever. The only times in my life that I have seen someone demand safety from another is when the latter is acting violent or reckless to the point that their behavior poses a threat.

[survirtual]

I fear our friend we're replying to here may have never had a deep relationship with the opposite sex.

This is unfortunately the reality of countless men, often going their entire lives like this, with bitterness and resentment growing outwardly instead of reflection inwardly.

Hijacking this response now for some advice / thoughts.

So for the lurking straight men: women are simply human beings trapped in a form you desire. The game here is simple. Don't try and control women as objects. Instead, try and control your desire.

I can promise with certainty, if you control your desire, everything you've ever dreamed and more will appear. This is not an easy game to play. But it is the only way to win.

Don't pursue women as romantic interests. Ever. Leave them alone. Instead, connect with them only as friends, and only as they initiate. This is the first step to escape the brainwashing we've all been subjected to.

This means you will be going through a withdrawal. It is difficult. Take a hike. Pour yourself into work. Take on new hobbies. Grow yourself.

Friends will appear. It doesn't matter what sex they are, they are friends, treat them with the same respect and kindness as you would anyone. This is your first test. This could appear in months, it could appear in years, it all depends on you.

We need to start seeing the light in each other, beyond the skin. Every single person, regardless of how you view them, has a universe in them. Help them become their universe. Don't trap them in yours.

[staticman2]

You keep using words like "Provider" and "security".

The words "provider" and "security" do not have specific meanings.

I'm practice this could describe anything from:

"I want a guy who is ripped like Conan the barbarian and beats the crap out of anyone who dares look at me funny"

to:

"I want to be a stay at home mom."

To:

"I want a guy with a job who splits rent with me."

[survirtual]

Cool man. You know best. I hope it all goes well for you.