[pdabbadabba]

The executive branch asserts that there is such a zone. But the truth is likely that many, if not all, 4th Amendment rights still apply in many situations within that zone. It's situation dependent, so it's difficult to make a sweeping generalization. But some of the executive branch's most aggressive claims and tactics, at least, may well not hold up in court.

[tptacek]

I think one thing that happens in these discussions is that people lose sight of how big a deal an actual border search is. An actual border search (I've had the pleasure! And mine was on the mild end of things.) is much worse than a search incident to arrest.

What I feel like people do here is map everyday abusive law enforcement behavior onto that border search exemption without realizing that what they're actually suggesting is that people should expect (and thus roll with) a "tear everything apart, search under clothes, maximally invasive" border search, which is what the Constitution authorizes at an actual border crossing.

[greedo]

Drive a white Altima across I20 from Abilene to Shreveport. Be a good boy and drive within the speed limit. You'll get pulled over for suspicion of being a drug mule. Of course you're innocent, but if you decline to allow them to search your car, they'll call in a drug dog that's trained to alert whenever its handler wants. So they toss your car and all your belongings. Strip out all the door panels, everything. If they want, they can plant evidence and jail you. If they decide to be nice, they just leave you on the side of the road trying to figure out how to put your car back together.

[dragonwriter]

> The executive branch asserts that there is such a zone. But the truth is likely that many, if not all, 4th Amendment rights still apply in many situations within that zone.

Technically, the entire fourth amendment applies. BUT All the fourth amendment requires is probable cause for warrants, and that searches and seizures be reasonable. It doesn't require warrants for searches or seizures (although courts have found that that is usually necessary for reasonableness), and it doesn't require probable cause for searches or seizures without a warrant (though courts have found that that also is usually necessary for reasonableness.)

What the courts have allowed is the use of the border zone to justify exceptions to a lot of the things that are usually required for reasonableness. This isn't, technically, an exception to the Fourth Amendment, because searches still need to be "reasonable". Its just proximity to the border makes searches "reasonable" that wouldn't be anywhere else.

[tptacek]

Got a case cite on this?

I'm doing ["border search" "miles" site:uscourts.gov], getting cases --- recent cases, including some with cites to Ameida-Sanchez, which of course makes my point --- and not seeing much to suggest that CBP can randomly search random cars in Green Bay WI under the border search exemption.

[superkuh]

Congress asserts this since they passed the 2001 bill that destroyed the country. It was called The PATRIOT Act. It created this, not any particular president's interpretation. All the executives since Bush jr. have asserted it. And I called it out then, in the past, over and over and over. But our leaders were too charismatic to hold to accord. None of them sunset the PATRIOT act in 2003 when it was supposed to or any time it could have been thereafter. Niether that nor the 2001/2002 authorizations of use of military force used for assassinating US citizens(1). Which was formalized via the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposition_Matrix created by Obama and used by Obama/Obama/Trump/Biden/Trump. We had our chance. No one cared.

And now here we are with most of the population of the USA without rights and the president able to declare anyone left a terrorist and use the military against them.

(1*: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Abdulrahman_al-Awla... )

[tptacek]

It's trivially easy to find cases that refute this (see the Google query across the thread). You'll have to do better than "2001".