[chuckadams]

Give Nix a look sometime, it takes this to a whole new level by including all of the build dependencies in the hash, and their build dependencies and so on. The standard flake workflow even includes the warning about having uncommitted files.

[ikety]

It's quite odd to me that Nix or something similar like Mise isn't completely ubiquitous in software. I feel like I went from having issues with build dependencies to having that aspect of software development completely solved as soon as I adopted Nix.

I absolutely can't imagine not using some kind of tool like this. Feels as vital as VCS to me now.

[chuckadams]

We'd have been a lot further along if tools like make had ever adopted hashes for freshness checking rather than timestamps. We'd have ccache built in to make, make could hash entire targets, and now we're halfway to derivations. Of course that's handwaving over the tricky problem of making sure targets build reproducibly, but perhaps compiler toolchains would have taken more care to ensure it.

[eptcyka]

I'd say the sad part is that nix really works well when the toolchain does caching transparently. But to deliver good DX outside of nix, you kind of want great porcelain tooling that handles everything behind the scenes - downloading of libraries, building said libraries, linking everything together. Sometimes people choose to just embed a whole programming language to make their build system work e.g. gradle. Cargo just does everything. Nix then can't really granularly build everything piece by piece when building rust crates with Cargo - you just get to rebuild every dependency any time the derivation is built and any one input changed. I wonder how much less time would've been wasted if newer languages chose to build on top of nix. Of course, nix would need to become slightly more compatible with Windows and other OSes for this to be practical.

[bigfishrunning]

Timestamps have the property of being easily comparable; you can always tell if one file is older then the other. If you were to use hashes for the same purpose, you'd have to keep a database of expected hashes, and comparing them would be a less trivial task, etc. It's doable, but it would be a very differently designed (and much more computationally expensive) program then make.

[chuckadams]

I bet we could get pretty far with symlinks, but then again even those were an exotic feature on some of make's supported platforms. Nowadays, may as well use sqlite.

[peterldowns]

Agreed. Recently started a new gig and set up Mise (previously had used nix for this) in our primary repos so that we can all share dependencies, scripts, etc. The new monorepo mode is great. Basically no one has complained and it's made everyone's lives a lot easier. Can't imagine working any other way — having the same tools everywhere is really great.

I'll also say I have absolutely 0 regrets about moving from Nix to Mise. All the common tools we want are available, it's especially easy to install tools from pip or npm and have the environments automanaged. The docs are infinity times better. And the speed of install and shell sourcing is, you guessed it, much better. Initial setup and install is also fantastically easier. I understand the ideology behind Nix, and if I were working on projects where some of our tools weren't pre-packageable or had weird conflicting runtime lib problems I'd get it, but basically everything these days has prebuilt static binaries available.

[chuckadams]

Mise is pretty nice, I'd recommend it over all the other gazillion version-manager things out there, but it's not without its own weak spots: I tried mise for a php project, neither of the backends available for php had a binary for macos, and both of them failed to build it. I now use a flake.nix, along with direnv and `use flake`. The nix language definitely makes for some baffling boilerplate around the dependencies list, but devs unfamiliar with nix can ignore it and just paste in the package name from nixpkgs search.

There's also jbadeau/mise-nix that lets you use flakes in mise, but I figured at that point I may as well just use flake.nix.

[peterldowns]

The beauty of mise is that as long as someone is hosting a precompiled binary for you, it's easy to get it. I just repro'd and yeah, `mise use php` fails for me on my machine because I don't have any dev headers. But looks like there's an easy workaround using the `ubi` downloader:

https://github.com/jdx/mise/discussions/4720#discussioncomme...

or see the first comment on this thread to see a way to explicitly specify where to find the binaries for each platform:

https://github.com/jdx/mise/discussions/4720#discussioncomme...

Having these kind of "eject" options is one of the reasons I really appreciate Mise. Not sure this would work for you but I'd rather be able to do this than have to manage/support everyone on my dev team installing and maintaining Nix.

[chuckadams]

Nix is just one installer (I steer devs toward Determinate's installer) so technically not super-different from needing Docker. Lots of files in /nix but actually less disk use since the store has much more fine-grained de-duping than container images. Nix is still a big bite though, and for most projects I wouldn't make nix a requirement, but the project in question is itself a build system with reproducibility requirements in its design, so I'm not losing too much sleep over this one. The final artifacts don't depend on Nix anyway.

[spooky_deep]

I can say why I bounced off of Nix.

Lots of package combinations didn’t work and I was not skilled enough to figure out why.

The error messages are terrible.

They don’t provide enough versions of packages. I want Python 3.10.4 exactly. But Nix packages by default only provide 3.10.something

I would love to use Nix everywhere, but it’s just too cumbersome for me.

[chuckadams]

If the nix ecosystem moved entirely to flakes, you could just point at the flake in python's repo, pin it to the proper commit hash, and job's done. Might result in a lot of extra near-duplicate dependencies in the store, but that's unlikely to affect you at the level of Python. Otherwise yeah, you're stuck with whatever combinations were blessed by nixpkgs at the time, or with writing your own derivation.

And the error messages are ... well, yeah. I don't find the nix language as awful as some do, but it's still a functional language by and for functional programmers, and being lazy, a lot of errors surface in very non-obvious places. Ultimately Nix could use a declarative config format on top of everything, but I'd rather they ironed out the other issues first. Guix seems to be a bit further along there, but its platform options are more limited.

[ikety]

Tried Mise?

[zokier]

I think bazel is the tool lot of people are converging towards, but turns out that maintaining complex build setups is a lot of work.

[steeleduncan]

Yes, especially as you can do things like

  nix run github:user/repo/commit

There is no need to keep anything around, or roll your own nix equivalent, you can just look up the output by commit.