[Aurornis]

They don’t. The movements pushing these ideas are against the idea of aptitude testing. Many of them are even against the idea of having advanced classes for those who are ahead.

It’s not a niche ideology, sadly. It’s going mainstream. A core part of Zohran Mamdani’s platform was his goal to phase out gifted education programs, for example.

[triceratops]

> his goal to phase out gifted education programs

Gifted education programs for kindergarten. I don't necessarily agree with that either but it's important to be accurate when talking about proposed policies. The man isn't talking about taking away AP algebra. Most kindergarteners still need to be told not to eat their boogers.

[Aurornis]

“Phase out” means gradually remove.

Kindergarten is where the phase out starts. That’s how you phase something out. You don’t take it away from everyone all at once because that triggers outrage. You disallow it for new kindergarten students one season, then next year remove it from 1st grade so they can’t go into accelerated programs and so on. He explicitly uses the phrase “phase out” for this reason.

Read more of his platform documents, including the ones before everything got watered down for his website.

The “it’s just for kindergarten” is just positive spin on the first step of the goal of phasing it out in general.

[triceratops]

> Read more of his platform documents, including the ones before everything got watered down for his website

Do you have links?

[Aurornis]

It’s been his statement all over: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/02/nyregion/mamdani-schools-...

The phase out starts with kindergarten and “early grades”. In some places he’s said up through second grade which some assume is an upper limit, but really it’s just the natural length of phasing out gifted programs one year at a time over the 4-year course of a mayoral term due to the necessary delays to eliminate the program after his election date (kindergarten next school year, then 1st grade the next, then 2nd grade)

[triceratops]

Assuming he wants to eliminate all gifted programs because he said he wants to eliminate some of them is a type of ZDS. You also edited your earlier comment to say

> You disallow it for new kindergarten students one season, then next year remove it from 1st grade so they can’t go into accelerated programs and so on

I don't know how it works in NYC now, but it doesn't have to be like that. When I went to school you could always get into the gifted program at the beginning of any school year if your teacher put you up for it. You didn't have to be in the program since kindergarten.

[Aurornis]

> I don't know how it works in NYC now, but it doesn't have to be like that. When I went to school you could always get into the gifted program at the beginning of any school year if your teacher put you up for it. You didn't have to be in the program since kindergarten.

Sorry, I should have been more clear.

The gifted program for kindergarten will be eliminated in the first year of the phaseout.

The following year it will also be eliminated for first grade.

The following year it will be eliminated for second grade as well.

This is the phase out. Students who start in kindergarten next year won’t have the option of the gifted program because it will be eliminated for the following grade every year.

It doesn’t matter that they didn’t get into it in Kindergarten because it won’t exist in 1st grade when they get there, and so on.

It’s not “ZDS”. It’s literally what he’s said.

[insane_dreamer]

phasing out K-2 gifted programs seems reasonable to me, and in fact beneficial (I say this as a parent of a gifted child)

you're taking a leap to assume that this will lead to the abolishment of gifted programs in the higher grades (where such programs make more sense)

[Izkata]

Also, they used to start that young. My gradeschool in the 90s would identify gifted students in kindergarten and give parents the option to move them to SWAS (school-within-a-school) starting in first grade.

[riskable]

There is a well-known effect where segregating kids into gifted VS non-gifted harms the education of the non-gifted while only having a marginal impact on the gifted:

https://ncrge.uconn.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/982/2019/04...

Basically, non-gifted kids learn from the gifted ones. It's that whole, "positive influence from peers" thing.

In the long term, having gifted programs results in a handful of accelerated students and a lot more struggling ones (at the end of mandatory education).

[Aurornis]

> Basically, non-gifted kids learn from the gifted ones. It's that whole, "positive influence from peers" thing.

In other words, let’s drag the smart students down, disallow them a better education, and instead force them to teach their peers because we don’t think their teachers are doing a good job?

This is a terrible way to solve a problem.

[jcranmer]

Honestly, nothing has done a better job of solidifying my understanding of a material than trying to explain it to other people. We should be giving students more opportunities to do this, not less.

[triceratops]

How does giving some students AP classes take away their opportunity to tutor other classmates? Do they not have friends in the non-gifted track?

[Aurornis]

That’s fallacious.

The students won’t get a chance to learn the advanced material by examining it to others because they won’t be allowed to learn the advanced material.

How do people not see the harms in banning advanced classes?

[jcranmer]

You're presupposing that the only possible way to provide enrichment is by tracking people into advanced classes.

[akramachamarei]

On the contrary, the study you cite found no significant effect either way for either group. From the last page: "we find that gifted grouping does not help or hurt the achievement growth of gifted students nor does it help or hurt the achievement growth of non-gifted students" (emphasis mine.) This certainly does not imply that separating gifted tracks results in a lot more struggling students.

[Aurornis]

Thank you! It’s perpetually frustrating that so many have come up with false ideas about gifted programs hurting other student.

Allowing advanced students to learn advanced topics should be an easy decision for everyone. It’s so strange that it’s become a contentious topic.

[vacuity]

Based on what GP said, it isn't clear that the implementation of "allowing advanced students to learn advanced topics" is successful either. It seems like the current gifted/non-gifted system isn't working.

[triceratops]

I mean that's nice and all. But then you can also get behavioral issues from gifted students who feel stifled. Their needs aren't less important than the other students'.

Kids usually don't learn "school" things like math, reading, and science from each other. They learn behaviors. Kindness, cooperation, competition, integrity, working hard, not being disruptive etc. Having a gifted track for part of the day doesn't disrupt that learning.

[fortran77]

Even though he personally benefited from them. Pull up the ladder!

[vacuity]

Do you have reason to believe he benefitted from gifted programs around the level of kindergarten or maybe first or second grade?

[fortran77]

He never had to work a day in his life and now he's mayor elect of NYC!

[vacuity]

The "never had to work a day in his life" claim is wrong, though I agree his experience seems insufficient for the position of mayor.

[tehjoker]

There is a silver lining though, when everyone is in the same class, better off people don't think they can escape and push to make the program better for everyone.

[gizajob]

Nah, they get dragged down and ignored.

Teachers only really teach the middle third - the top third can be ignored because they can do it for themselves while being bored.

The bottom third can’t be helped because they won’t be helped without a huge amount of energy by the teacher (for little rewards), and so won’t do it for themselves while being bored.

The middle third is all that gets schooled because they can at least be bumped up a little higher towards where the under-achieving top third thus rests.

[Aurornis]

> better off people don't think they can escape and push to make the program better for everyone.

Your solution is to make the smart kids suffer so maybe they can force the educators to do better? That’s insane. It’s also not going to happen.

Do you know what will happen? Any parent with the means will scrape together cash to pull their students out and go to private schools. Or they’ll hire tutors after school and force their kids to sit down and learn what they should have been learning during the day.

This fantasy where the smart kids rally together to overhaul the system because we banned them from taking advanced classes is a delusion.

[FatherOfCurses]

This gives off "I Am Very Smart" vibes.

I was in a gifted program in grades 5-7, stopped going mainly because I had to travel to another school to attend and it was inconvenient.

I didn't "suffer" being in classes with folks who weren't at my level. The teaching staff did a great job and I never felt like I was being shortchanged. My undiagnosed ADHD means I goofed around a lot, but several of my friends told me after high school that they appreciated me because I helped them see learning from a different angle than their parents or the teachers.

[Aurornis]

Great that it worked for you. I believe everyone should have the choice.

However, please don’t force your experience to be the only allowable experience for others. If some students want to take advanced classes, we should let them.

Refusing to allow students to learn at a faster rate is insanity.

[vacuity]

As someone else mentioned somewhere in this thread, what about public schooling prevents students from learning by themselves? In my experience, the best students I know generally didn't become so due to public or private schooling, but simply personal interest and drive (and perhaps talent, but that is also school-independent).

[triceratops]

But you can't tailor one program for kids with different abilities. You shouldn't even try. You should give each individual what they need to succeed to the best of their ability. That's the core of inclusion and equity. You know, the classic comic of the three kids trying to look over the fence?

[tr45872267]

They can and do. Private schools already exist.

[bryanlarsen]

AFAICT many private schools are worse than public schools. Parents put kids into private schools so that they get good grades and extra-curriculars to let them get into the good universities. So that's what private schools sell -- good grades. It's less important that they have the education that the good grades imply.

[Aurornis]

I have no doubt schools like that exist, but in every location I’ve lived and interacted with parents the private school educations they sent their kids to were no question a cut above.

I think this idea that private schools are no better are even worse is a wishful thinking narrative. Private schools, especially the more expensive ones, naturally select for parents who are more involved. More involved parents are highly correlated with better student outcomes. That alone means private schools are correlated with better outcomes. It honestly doesn’t really matter if it’s cause and effect or correlation, parents send their kids to private schools because they want them in the mix with other students selected into the higher performing environment.

[tr45872267]

They do perform better on average

>The average private school mean reading score was 14.7 points higher than the average public school mean reading score, corresponding to an effect size of .41 (the ratio of the absolute value of the estimated difference to the standard deviation of the NAEP fourth-grade reading score distribution). After adjusting for selected student characteristics, the difference in means was near zero and not significant.

For math:

>The average private school mean mathematics score was 7.8 points higher than the average public school mean mathematics score, corresponding to an effect size of .29. After adjusting for selected student characteristics, the difference in means was -4.5 and significantly different from zero. (Note that a negative difference implies that the average school mean was higher for public schools.)

In the context of the specific discussion here, it doesn't really matter that the effect goes away when controling for selected student characteristics. First off this was from 2006, we would have to see if any of that has changed. The 2024 numbers are here[1]. But in any case they are not worse than public schools, although they may be no better or slightly worse than a public school in a rich neighborhood or similar.

[0] https://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/pubs/studies/2006461.a...

[1] https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/dashboards/schools_dashboa...

[in_cahoots]

Considering private schools cost tens of thousands of dollars and get to choose who they admit, as good (in reading) and worse (in math) than schools with similar demographics seems pretty damning, doesn't it?

[tr45872267]

Damning for who? Education is just one reason parents choose public schools for their children. Depending on the school (eg. Catholic schools) it may be the last thing they care about. Also you should look at the cost per pupil for public schools. It is very high in many states, with the average being $18,000 per student in 2021.[0]

[0] https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cmb/public-school...

[naIak]

You can’t have a good teaching programme when there is a variance of 40 points of IQ among the pupils.