[Aeglaecia]

i understand your perspective viscerally and as such i understand the push back ... the argument is that there is nothing wrong with someone labelled 'adhd' , rather that the modern western system both a) does not handle adhd behaviour properly and b) exhibits conditions where non-adhd individuals exhibit adhd behaviour ... when taking into account that speed will motivate anybody (both adhd and non adhd) , and that demotivation is a natural response to a hopeless scenario , i do not see adhd as a disability in and of itself ... recommend to look up the effect of hope on drowning rats ...

[superice]

Even if you were 100% correct and the world is broken, fully causing ADHD as a disorder: Please fix the world FIRST and only once proven ADHD is caused by what once was the shape of western society and no longer applies, THEN you get to take the metaphorical wheelchair away.

The alternative is that you prevent millions of people in managing their disability while asking them to bet on your view of the world AND on our collective ability to change it. In the best case scenario where we manage that shift, that's what, 10 years of my life gone while society adjusts? Will you write my kids a nice letter explaining them their dad is going to be a deadbeat the next 10 years while we fix society, because somebody on the internet thinks daddy shouldn't be on stimulant medication?

You're just not presenting an attractive deal to anyone, whilst very politely telling disabled people making the best of their shit situation that their crutches should not exist. Hell, maybe they shouldn't need to exist, but how is that my fault? And while I can't tell if you stand on the side of 'using meds to manage ADHD is a failure of self discipline and morality', but if you do: I promise you most people with ADHD have more self discipline in their little toe than others do in their entire body. But self discipline doesn't make a cripple walk, as much as it doesn't make my brain make the chemicals I need to put my body into action. I've spent enough time of my life flogging myself into action, believing I was a fundamentally lazy human, I'll take the meds.

[alterom]

> Even if you were 100% correct and the world is broken, fully causing ADHD as a disorder: Please fix the world FIRST and only once proven ADHD is caused by what once was the shape of western society and no longer applies, THEN you get to take the metaphorical wheelchair away. [...] You're just not presenting an attractive deal to anyone.

Thanks for writing this succinct counterpoint!

The argument of the commenter you're responding to reminds me of the "ADHD is a superpower!” vibe, which I perceive as toxic positivity, but couldn't rebuke quite as clearly [1].

"There's nothing wrong with you, it's literally the entire human society that's broken" has the same implication ("don't take meds, you're nOt bRoKeN”).

Of course it's the environment that causes our symptoms. Just like cold weather makes one feel cold.

It'd be rather silly to argue that winter clothes should be abandoned, that they exist only to make money for clothing manufacturers.

Some of us live in cold places. We need winter clothes. And we don't make the weather.

[1] https://romankogan.net/adhd/#Superpower

[superice]

I don't like the superpower vibe either. I do not entirely look negative upon my ADHD, but then again, to what degree it is my personality and to what degree it is the disorder, I don't know. If others want to view their ADHD as a superpower, I'm all for it, but pushing this narrative too hard doesn't feel constructive.

For me personally, I tend to view myself as a human with some characteristics which in most contexts are not helpful, but make me uniquely suited for other situations. I try to avoid the word 'broken', but for a long time I thought about myself as 'broken in a sometimes useful way'. My burden in life is to manage and control the characteristics where they are disadvantaging me, and position myself as much as I can in positions where these characteristics are useful assets. To hook into your winter metaphore: If you always feel cold, working in a tropic resort where others would feel continually hot, sweaty and uncomfortable might just be perfect for you.

Where it crosses the line for me is neurotypical people saying 'oh I don't need winter clothes, and anyone who does is must be to use a shortcut and should just jog themselves warm instead'. Or even ADHD people saying: 'My feeling cold all the time is a superpower, you should just go work in your local sauna and you'll have no problem at all!'. Great, happy that you guys don't have this issue or figured out a workaround, but I do, and I need my damn winter clothes. I wish I didn't, I'll look for warmer situations, but I need them right now.

[Aeglaecia]

yeah my point is that the western society should be changed and i dont know why you think that i think that speed should be taken away entirely but i dont think that

[superice]

Apologies for drawing that conclusion, but usually the argument presented is something like "amphetamines / stimulants bad especially in healthy adults -> usage on the rise due to increases ADHD diagnoses -> diagnoses potentially fraudulent? -> pharmaceutical companies are incentivized to sell stimulants -> ban stimulants entirely before it gets out of hand and rejoice our win on late stage capitalism and druggies".

I might've misunderstood the point you were trying to make, but saying 'society causes the issue' usually is followed by 'therefore treating with meds is silly and we shouldn't do that'. The latter part is what I take issue with, not the former, and if you weren't advocating for that then we have no issue and are in agreement.

I'd love to find a constructive way to change society for the better so ADHD is not as much of an issue, but personally, I don't see that happening. And I do see anti-intellectualism and puritanism on the rise, and with it, a movement that wants to take my crutches away to deal with society as it is. Maybe you weren't one of them, but I saw you making similar arguments, which is what prompted me to respond.

Calling the group of all stimulant medications "speed" is not a great sign either if I have to judge where somebody stands in this debate btw. Dextroamphetamine, one of the ingredients in Adderall, is similar to other amphetamines as found in speed, but for instance methylphenidate aka Ritalin only partially has the same working mechanisms, blocking the reuptake of dopamine and norepiphrine but not helping the extra release of more of these neurotransmitters. And that comes with a different profile in terms of addiction risks and whatnot. It is not helpful to call all of these medications 'speed' as if all ADHD people are buying potentially contaminated stuff on street corners from shady dealers, manufacturing this breaking bad style in their shed. Managing ADHD is done with clean, medical-grade, typically less-potent versions, with tightly controlled doses, closely managed by a licensed medical professional. Framing ADHD patients taking their prescription medication as speed users is not helpful. Even if you don't have any ill intent, reinforcing the belief we are all essentially the same as junkies just provides ammo for people who do want to take this away.

[Aeglaecia]

would love to continue this discussion but i feel like it will involve lots of this error correction so i shall leave it here , all the best