[iLemming]

> requires an enormous amount of hacking to make a usable IDE.

When you're using it for one, specific purpose, like an IDE for specific language(s), then yes, sure, it may feel like that.

Yet Emacs is so much more. It's not an IDE (but it could be); it's not [the best] source control tool; it's not [greatest] note taking app; it's not an [amazing] mail client; it's not [most beautiful] pdf reader; nor a [feature rich] terminal app; etc. Emacs is not even an editor, to be brutally honest. It's not the greatest concrete implementation of any of these things.

What Emacs actually is - it's a concrete implementation of an abstract idea - a Lisp REPL with a baked-in text editor into it. That, for a second, is an absolutely fascinating commodity. Once you grok the essence of that idea, it's really difficult not to see the extreme value of it.

I'm sorry, I just have hard time to believe anyone who says: "used it for many years... yet abandoned it anyway".

It typically means that they've been using it from a narrow, small focused point of view, without ever exploring the possibilities that "true" Lisp REPL can grant them. I just don't see myself ever escaping Emacs, because there's simply no practical, comparable alternatives to it. Comparing VSCode to Emacs is like comparing it to Thunderbird - you didn't like how Emacs handled your emails and now using something else? Congrats, and that's just fine, only it's not fair and proper comparison by any means.

[frumplestlatz]

I have a job to get done, and my job isn’t screwing around with my Emacs configuration.

And honestly, even if that was my job, I wouldn’t want to spend all my time messing around with a fragile, slow, untyped lisp REPL in the first place.

I used Emacs because it helped me get my job done, not because I have any particular affinity for lisp. I truly do not — in fact, I have even less affinity for it now that I’ve wasted so much time making Emacs usable for my purposes.

[iLemming]

> I have a job to get done

Yeah, it so totally fair to hear it from a Haskellite, I'm so convinced now... /s

"I have a job to get done, and my job isn't learning category theory, monads, type families, fighting compiler's cryptic messages and pragmas. I don't have any particular affinity for FP. I truly do not - in fact, I have even less affinity for it now that I've wasted so much time making Haskell do basic I/O and fighting the type system for my purposes..."

Even though the take like this maybe viewed as the honest one since Haskell's learning curve is genuinely brutal for practical work, I personally would never say that. I don't use Haskell, but I never regret time I spent trying to conquer it.

You can pretty much assert similar comments as yours about just any tool if you use it without proper understanding of the ideas behind it:

Python: my job isn't screwing around with virtual environments, dependency shit, and pretty useless type hints...

Java: my job ain't wrestling with Spring Boot config files, Maven POMs, and classpath issues...

C++: my job isn't learning the difference between stack/heap allocation, smart pointers, and move semantics...

Rust: my job isn't fighting the borrow checker and lifetime annotations...

Let's be honest, it seems you're mad at Emacs on an emotional level, rather than from educated, pragmatic stance. I admit, over the course of my career path I have felt similarly about different hard-to-learn things, I was like: "I feel like a sucker for not mastering this thing. Other people seem to make it sing. I wasted time and gave up. Now I need to feel like it was the tool's fault, not mine."

Eventually, I learned ways to distill great ideas and borrow them from different tools. I may not use a specific concrete implementation of a given tool daily, yet I find some of the abstract principles behind it appealing.

You have no idea how instrumental Emacs is for my everyday job-to-get-done tasks. It makes me sad to hear you failed to find the same dynamics even after spending a good amount of energy on it. When you're looking for a gray cat in a dark room and there is no cat, you'll spend a lot of time looking. And when you learn that it wasn't about a cat at all, you may end up hating all the cats. Attempting to use Emacs without understanding Lisp is like trying to cook in a dark kitchen. But programmers who dismiss Lisp entirely, are like musicians who refuse to learn music theory because they can play by ear. It's just sad to watch their talent getting lost in unnecessary limitations they've imposed on themselves. It like a talented musician who could understand harmony, composition, structure - but chooses not to. So they plateau. They hit a ceiling where ear alone can't take them further. And devs dismissing Lisp? They might have skills, but they're voluntarily blind to a way of thinking that could deepen their craft.

[frumplestlatz]

Yikes. I’ve spent 40 years in this industry. My work is in formal verification. My comprehension isn’t the problem here.

I wrote a lot of lisp making Emacs work the way I wanted it to. VSCode has been a remarkable improvement. Writing extensions for it has been a breeze. I have zero interest in going back.

[iLemming]

> I wrote a lot of lisp making Emacs work

Share the Emacs packages you wrote. I'm saying this unironically - someone might be interested to keep improving them, maybe they'd find some interesting ideas to extract from them. Don't be like some ungrateful jerk who benefited from communal work for years when it suited them and then has nothing to leave but grumpy resentment when they're done.

[frumplestlatz]

That's genuinely wild, man.

[iLemming]

In what sense? I apologize if I offended you. Just to be clear - don't share your config, experiments, packages or whatever with me specifically - simply consider making them public. Don't let the years of accumulated wisdom (whatever it adds up to) go waste. Emacs is not "a product", it's a "shared enterprise" and collective endeavor. Of course, it's not really "free" - just like everything, it has a price - it requires patience, dedication and time from every participant. You've mentioned using it for years, which means you've contributed to the cause. You've decided to move on - your reasons are your own. I'm not asking you to donate, volunteer, or speak about it either way. Do what you want. But for a moment, perhaps consider this with wonder: how many remarkable things have we humans collectively created that require no payment whatsoever, yet grant us the freedom to do things on our own terms? Projects like Emacs and Vim/Neovim are like free-for-all, unrestricted gardens. And that's why I get vexed seeing stuff like: "used it for years - getting tired of it...", etc. Reflections like that are akin to shitting all over the neck of those imaginary gardens, making them less desirable places for curious newcomers. I'm not telling you to not criticize, please do, but perhaps with consideration - tell it with constructivism. Allow those gardens to grow. They will most likely outlive your pondering - positive or otherwise, and mine and those of many more generations.