[ch4s3]

This seems like a great way to encourage the behavior you want, which is conserving when energy is emitting more carbon by shifting consumption. Do your laundry, charge a car, charge a whole house batter, run laundry, crank the AC, run your own aluminum smelter, whatever.

[RobinL]

In the UK, you can go on an agile tariff that does exactly this. I'm on one.

It's quite fun (and educational) with the kids to work out when to put the car on to charge, when to run the dryer etc, looking at the few days ahead forecasts.

Last month, we paid 11p per kWh on average, which is less than half what you'd pay on a standard tariff, and it's nice to be doing something good for the environment too. It's particularly satisfying to charge up the car when tariffs go negative.

Here's today's rates (actuals): https://agilebuddy.uk/latest/agile

Here's a forecast: https://prices.fly.dev/A/

[ch4s3]

> Last month, we paid 11p per kWh on average, which is less than half what you'd pay on a standard tariff

That's pretty rough. That should be about 14¢ per kWh which only a hair less than the median price per kWh in the US (~17¢).

[RobinL]

Yeah - unfortunately the UK has some of the highest electricity prices in Europe.

Almost all households are on fixed tariffs, typically about 26p/kwh at the moment.

[RobinL]

FWIW, here's a chart showing current prices across developed countries, showing UK is worst! https://fullfact.org/economy/uk-world-electricity-prices/

[adammarples]

And the worst part is the standing charge keeps going up

[hexbin010]

What, do you expect the energy companies to use their own money to invest in infrastructure for net zero and the AI boom? Oops too late it's been paid as dividends. No, just create a levy and make the public be unwilling investors except without getting the shares nor dividends

Don't forget it's also a tax for bailing out the failed energy companies

[hexbin010]

> It's quite fun (and educational) with the kids to work out when to put the car on to charge, when to run the dryer etc, looking at the few days ahead forecasts.

As if we aren't busy enough. I see this as just yet _another_ job the government/business is making us do instead of them.

Is it too much to ask for my government to provide sensibly and simply priced energy so we can get on with our day, working, studying, raising kids etc?

IMO this is just setting us up for insane surge pricing for those people who don't do the good citizen thing of becoming nocturnal

[RobinL]

I think it's best to view this from an economics point of view - in a nutshell price signals are usually the most powerful way to create behavioural change; in this case, we want people to shift demand away from peak times. Nobody is being forced to, they just have to pay more for the convenience of not bothering.

> IMO this is just setting us up for insane surge pricing for those people who don't do the good citizen thing of becoming nocturnal

It actually costs a lot more to produce marginal energy at peak times, the cost just reflects the cost of production. It doesn't seem unreasonable for me for the consumer to bear the cost, and also get the benfit if they choose to put their car to charge overnight rather than at peak time.

This also has a nice secondary benefit: anyone on agile tariffs who shifts demand away from peak time actually benefits those who don't want to bother, because the peak price/cost goes down, and so the overall average price of electricity goes down.

> I see this as just yet _another_ job the government/business is making us do instead of them

In most other market, people are expected to respond to price incentives. When local apples are cheap relative to imported cherries, people don't complain that government/business is making us do a job to push demand in the direction of apples.

> Is it too much to ask for my government to provide sensibly and simply priced energy so we can get on with our day, working, studying, raising kids etc?

The free market price _is_ the agile price. The government intervention is actually in the direction of fixing prices (e.g. by the energy price cap, which is sometimes below the free market price at peak times). In general, markets do not work very well when the government fixes the market

When you let the market clear and send out price signals, markets almost always become more efficient (which means that consumers benefit overall)

[hexbin010]

> we want people to shift demand away from peak times

Because governments have let energy companies fail to invest in necessary infrastructure for decades.

And who is the "we"? Definitely not me

I think a much larger conversation needs to happen about people's schedules, commitments and whether it's fair to say those who have less time and less flexibility due to work, children etc are somehow actively choosing to not be a good eco citizen. It's incredibly unfair.

I'd rather go back to root causes and re-evaluate private companies failing to provide the necessary infrastructure

[oezi]

> Because governments have let energy companies fail to invest in necessary infrastructure for decades.

Well, regulating oligopolies isn't fun and it isn't popular with voters.

[nandomrumber]

In Australia, residential premises are prohibited from running aluminium smelters.

Dunno about where you live.

If you’re going to throw capital at large metal refinery infrastructure, you want it running 24/7, or have guaranteed subsidies from local, state, and federal governments.

And remember that subsidies are paid from the public purse.