[Macha]

Rust came first, so people who didn't like Rust flocked to Zig as an alternative, and were keen to promote it as an alternative to Rust by criticising Rust, as wider usage would provide them more of an ecosystem to use in their own Zig programs.

People who were happy with Rust didn't have same need to criticise Zig in online spaces as Rust is the established player in the C alternatives space. (Though Rust is on the other side when compared to C once you expand the space to "all low level programming languages").

Also for people who don't care about the space at all, Rust has had years of exposure to promote fatigue, while Zig hasn't (yet).

[hitekker]

A bit of a tilted take.

Zig's BDFL was an early major supporter of Rust. It was Rust's core maintainer group who excluded him and warred against his language. The leaders decided any "memory unsafe" language was against "consensus"; first C, then Zig. They even posted on Twitter, calling Zig a "step backwards". This Language Supremacism was even worse in conferences and in private.

Today, you can see a lot of the core ex-leaders still sniping at at other language and even successful OSS projects based in those languages. The Zig community has its faults but Rust takes the cake for relentless gamesmanship.

[steveklabnik]

The beef you're talking about here is between pcwalton and Andrew. Patrick posted those things after he had left Rust leadership.

Andrew and I literally got some tacos last week. I mean, I'm not in Rust leadership anymore either, but this sort of thing just isn't recognizable to me outside of, again, a few posts by one person who no longer even worked on Rust.

[hitekker]

Yes, he was free to express his bigotry once he stepped down. Before that, Patrick was the leader and he hated non-memory-safe languages. He was not the only one, and that hate got worse after he left.

It's nice you got tacos with Zig's BDFL and I don't categorize you as a "hater". Rather, I think the Rust Core Group altogether was toxic. Unable to see their hate as hate, and having memories largely selective and largely untrustworthy.

[NobodyNada]

> people who didn't like Rust flocked to Zig as an alternative, and were keen to promote it as an alternative to Rust by criticising Rust, as wider usage would provide them more of an ecosystem to use in their own Zig programs.

> People who were happy with Rust didn't have same need to criticise Zig in online spaces as Rust is the established player in the C alternatives space. (Though Rust is on the other side when compared to C once you expand the space to "all low level programming languages").

I think that this effect is...more real and intentional than I wish it was or think is healthy.

There's no denying that Rust benefited greatly from heavy "language evangelism" from around 2014-2022 or so (rough subjective range of dates, ending with when I feel like Rust became sufficiently mainstream that "comment section evangalism" is no longer the primary driver of the language's growth). The atmosphere that surrounded the language evangalism during this era -- from my recollection as someone who was aware of Rust but explicitly not interested in it at the time -- felt like one of curiousity and exploring new innovation in the programming language design space, and it didn't come across as pushy or some kind of moral imperative.

Additionally, most of the evangelism was not driven by the Rust project itself, but more of a grassroots thing from:

- Early users

- People who thought the language was interesting without having used it

- The attention that came from prolific early Rust projects like Servo and ripgrep

- The attention that came from the language's technical innovations

(The only person I remember regularly seeing in Rust threads who was actually associated with the project was Steve Klabnik, and I consider him a stellar example of how to represent a project online in a way that's respectful and not pushy or combative.) And eventually I had a programming task where, thanks to those deep, insightful, and respectful comment threads, I recognized that Rust was the right tool for the task I was trying to accomplish, learned the language myself, found it a joy to use, and began using it more regularly.

But once Rust became mainstream, the eternal September kicked in. Now there seem to be quite a lot of people who are more interested in "language wars" than in healthy, technical discussion of programming languages, and it's exhausting. Many threads about C or C++ or Rust or Zig or Fil-C or whatever seems to get overtaken by these obnoxious, repetitive, preachy, ideological comments about why you should or shouldn't be using Rust, often with very ill-informed armchair takes.

I think this is just something that comes from mainstream Internet culture and is not very representative of "the Rust community", and especially not the Rust project -- most of the serious writing and comments coming from people actually involved with Rust have that spirit of respect, openness, and curiousity about programming language design that I remember from the 2010's. A lot of people who work on Rust are deeply interested in the tradeoffs and innovations of new programming languages and fundamentally excited about the possibility of Rust becoming obsolete because something better has come along. But now that Rust adoption is increasing and the broader Internet culture is being forced to consider it, you see a lot of unhealthy reactionary takes from people who act like programming languages are a zero-sum game and they need to pick a side.

Now Zig is where this gets a little bit odd to me. My impression (as an outsider to the Zig community as well) is that Zig's leadership has chosen to view adoption as a zero-sum language war. It's as if they considered:

- How Rust benefited from language evangelism during the 2010's

- How many other "C-replacement" languages over the past 25 years have failed to gain large-scale adoption

- How "language war" discourse is extremely effective for enagement on places like HN

...and decided that the best way to increase Zig adoption is by intentionally leaning into that high-engagement "language war" discourse. Maybe it's not intentional -- and there's certainly a lot of cool ideas and high-quality technical discussion that comes out of the Zig community -- but I've also seen a consistent pattern of snarky or hostile comments from Zig leadership towards Rust people (such as calling Rust users "safety coomers", or jumping into in-depth technical discussions of Rust's downsides like compiler performance with substance-less cheap shots). Whereas I can't remember ever seeing anything but respect and curiosity from people involved in the Rust project towards other communities.

I'm just tired of seeing people draw battle lines around programming languages instead of promoting a spirit of learning from each other and making our tools better.

[fishmicrowaver]

That's one hell of a post. I'm reading that Rust deserved to be evaluated on its technical merits (which I'm happy with), but Zig has some community issues in closer examination?

I've looked at the major rust implements from big corp. It's all Arc, copy/clone, and people getting fired.

[NobodyNada]

I think that both languages deserve to be evaluated on their technical merits, of which there are many. I would say they are both very well-designed languages that occupy different points in the design space and each have unique innovations of their own, and are worthy of the attention they get. I also think both languages have strong communities and good technical leadership.

What I'm frustrated about is a general pattern in online discourse of treating programming language adoption as a zero-sum game and pitting the communities against each other. This is nothing remotely new -- holy wars over tooling are just about as old as computing itself -- but Rust seems to have become right at the center of it in the last few years, and I think this is likely just a result of it becoming "mainstream" enough for people to care about it outside of a niche circle. I consider that a community issue with Rust, but probably an unavoidable one given the scale of the Internet.

The thing that feels different to me about Zig is that the language's leadership participates in the "holy war", which is different than what I have observed from Rust's leadership. It's one thing if random netizens are trash talking the "opposing team" like a sports fan, but I would expect people who are deeply involved in programming language design and representing their community to know better and behave better than that. It's surprising and disappointing to me; it drags down the overall quality of discourse and sets a bad example for the language communities.

Maybe my own perspective on this is skewed, perhaps I'm looking at Rust's past with rose-tinted glasses. But I think my experiences are comparable. From 2015-2020 I was primarily working with Swift and closely following that language's design and development, and the Rust community (which I was not involved in at all) felt like friendly neighbors. The two communities shared similar goals and had a lot of like-minded people, and because of that there was a lot of overlap and amicability between the communities. Both languages' teams were frequently comparing notes and copying features from one another.

Now I'm primarily working with Rust and closely following that languages' design and development, and it seems to me like the Zig community (which I am not involved with at all) should be on the same friendly terms for the same reasons, but the vibes I see from them are "this town isn't big enough for the two of us", and I'm bothered by that.

> I've looked at the major rust implements from big corp. It's all Arc, copy/clone, and people getting fired.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. Are you saying you've seen projects implemented in Rust go poorly? If so, I don't know what to say without any context, besides that I don't think there's a "one size fits all" for programming languages.

Or are you saying big companies' contributions towards the Rust project itself have gone poorly? I don't really know what to say about that either. I have felt that the direction the project has taken over the past few years has represented me and addressed my needs well, so I have confidence in their technical direction and leadership for the time being.

[steveklabnik]

Thank you for the kind words.

[baranul]

Agree with your take on Zig, as it's clear their leadership promotes a foul filled war on other C alternative languages. Not just Rust, but others like Vlang, Dlang, C3, etc... HN has become dominated by them, where other languages (outside of Rust and Zig), can get very little shine. When they do, their light often gets snuffed out quickly.