[darkwater]

How would you handle the case when some web service is making calls to a 3rd-party and that 3rd-party is failing in unexpected ways (i.e. under high load or IPs are not answering due to routing issues) to avoid a snowball effect on your service without using the timeout concept in any way?

[withinboredom]

You put the timeout on the socket, not your application. Your application shouldn't care how long it takes, as long as progress is being made, which the socket will know about, but you won't. If you put a timeout on your application and then retry, you'll just make the problem worse. Your original packets are still in a buffer somewhere and still will be processed. Retrying won't help the situation.

[saurik]

The socket should also not have a timeout.

[withinboredom]

Sockets actually need a timeout because there is no signal that a client has disconnected. Eventually, maybe, a router along the path will be nice enough to send you a RST packet, but it isn’t guaranteed.

[saurik]

People put a lot of timeouts in code when there are humans in the loop that should handle the timeout. An outgoing socket (as is the case in this scenario) really should not have a timeout.

An incoming one might could have a timeout if there is no other way to garbage collect the connection, but, if at all possible, that should usually be in the higher layers, not the lower ones.

(Maybe read my other response to the person you responded to? I purposefully gave you a really short and matter-of-fact statement that fit into the discussion from the thread more broadly.)

[withinboredom]

I’m explicitly saying not to put timeouts in code… but you must put a timeout on a socket due to the way they work. Period. Or deal with the default, which is usually many minutes. Sockets timeout when packets haven’t been acknowledged for a long time, but you can also set an idle timeout as well.

A timeout on sockets isn’t negotiable.

[saurik]

I continue to disagree: the socket does not need a timeout, it can simply go into an infinitely held state. Take a web browser (a very typical "outgoing socket" case): there is no value in either the browser or the socket having a timeout, as, if the user decides it takes too long, they will click Stop and/or Reload, which will close the socket. "I guess the remote side didn't send me a response packet within X seconds so I'll automatically stop the load and show the user an error" does not provide any benefit and can only lead to new failure edge cases.

[saurik]

How does the timeout help? Expose the lack of progress to the user and give them a way to give up; if they choose to walk away, then you stop. The only timeout should be in the head of a human that can make real decisions about how long too long is. The real problem: me knowing that if the software would have waited a bit longer, it would have worked. Your timeouts just cause more busy work and are often the root cause of snowball effects.