[RossBencina]

I reckon it makes some sense for Apple users. You have to be willing (and financially able) to upgrade when Apple says. Apple forcefully obsoletes their products way too quickly to be a viable option if you care about longevity[0]. I have five excellent-condition still-perfectly-working Apple products next to me, none of which have current operating system support from Apple.

[0] EDIT: for reference, my previous ThinkPad lasted me 14 years.

[ryandrake]

Out of about a dozen Apple devices in our household, none of them can be updated to the latest operating system. It's a huge problem with the Apple ecosystem, I'd say one of the biggest problems. Their hardware vastly outlasts their software, comically so.

[tuyiown]

14 years as your main driver ? Because that what we’re talking about.

[Too]

14 is a indeed very long. Let’s instead assume 12, it’s 2013 and you got a top specced T440 with 4th gen i7. That’s actually not bad and the build quality is like a tank as all Thinkpads. Nothing I would use as daily driver myself but having used many other thinkpads of that generation I can see why others are still getting by with it today.

Since we are talking about OS support. 4th gen Intel isn’t supported by Windows 11, so you’d have to upgrade to Linux.

[gcr]

Out of curiosity, how much of that thinkpad were you able to upgrade? Could that be the difference between 5 and 14 years here?

[kcplate]

Describe “forcefully obsoletes”?

I ran a 2008 MBP until 2019. Then…gave it to my wife who used it until 2022. Finally retired it after the battery swelled. I suspect I could have replaced the battery and she could have got another couple of years out of it if I really needed.

Not once did that device ever feel obsolete.

[RossBencina]

I think we have different definitions of obsolescence. Mine is basically "the ability to continue to use the device for the original purpose that I purchased it for." In my case, developing Mac OS software (that's the only reason I own Macs, I do all of my day to day computing on Windows and Linux.) I completely agree with you that the hardware is in no sense obsolete, the software is a different matter. For example my original Retina iPad started feeling obsolete as soon as Safari stopped rendering modern websites, even though the device hardware does not feel obsolete. Another example is that every Mac Mini that I have bought was useless to me as soon as I could not upgrade the OS and run the latest XCode on it.

In my view the forcefull obsolescence mechanism comprises the following strongly interacting practices:

1. Not supplying operating system updates for "older" hardware (actually not that old). Depending on your security posture this point alone may be sufficient.

2. Aggressively deprecating APIs and nudging developers to use the new APIs (i.e. nudging applications to not support the operating systems that run on the older OS that you have to run on the old hardware -- see point 1)

3. Ratcheting operating system upgrades with new hardware. There is no way to control the OS version that you use independent of hardware: replacing a machine always forces an OS upgrade.

4. Requiring the latest OS to run the latest development tools.

In combination, these practices create a treadmill that keeps everything "new" and anything older than 3 years not compatible. There's probably more to it than this but that's what I could write down quickly.

[madeofpalk]

It makes sense for some people, and doesn't for others. Not particularly surprising or insightful.

[brailsafe]

Meh, I've been a mac user for 15 years professionally, usually alongside some desktop pc for gaming, and I upgrade when I damn well please, which is typically when they have a notable leap in performance, my laptop gets stolen, or my needs change, which should hardly be surprising in terms of progression through a career.

Their recent hardware is proving much more capable as tools than the budget i5 I had before, so I upgraded. In terms of machinery expenses, it's more than I'd like to spend on RAM and ssd than I'd prefer (their pricing ladder is comical) but the product is amazing. I'm going to wait as long as possible before I upgrade to Tahoe though, seems almost DoA

[45764986]

>I have five excellent-condition still-perfectly-working Apple products next to me, none of which have current operating system support from Apple.

If they're working perfectly, why does it matter if they have current operating support? It doesn't seem like you're dependent on Apple.

[torben-friis]

Software drops support for certain OS versions even if the device still can run it.

The first iPad Pro can’t run adobe products for example.

The Mac is a bit more resilient to this, but it’s still worrying as yearly improvements become subtler.

[ryandrake]

Yea, this is the bigger problem: 3rd party software developers drop support for "too old" operating systems WAY too early. Especially on mobile. Some developers only support one major previous version, which is insane.

So, Apple leaves old hardware high and dry by not supporting them with operating systems, and 3P software leaves users high and dry by dropping support for operating systems. It's like they are working together to create e-waste.

[kcplate]

> The first iPad Pro can’t run adobe products for example.

That’s more on Adobe than Apple though right?

[brailsafe]

I'd argue it's a bit of both. In my case, I have an iPad 3, which runs iOS 9 compatible apps, but iOS itself doesn't backup the app files, so when various developers pulled their files off the app store for those old iOS versions, I lost access to the old software that did work, which really doesn't make want to buy another iOS device. Less of a problem on mac though.

[kcplate]

I guess if it was a paid app I can see the irritation that would cause. Free apps not so much.

[brailsafe]

In terms of what I'd hypothetically feel entitled to, absolutely, but it only matters because that basic level of control isn't there

[RossBencina]

I use Macs to develop Mac OS software. I need a recent OS to run the latest XCode and I need to test on the latest OS that my customers are using.