[piltdownman]

>> who invented Detroit techno, which inspired Belgian techno, that inspired the UK rave scene that brought the future of electronic music (jungle, drum n bass, grime, etc).

Lol, Belgian acts like Technotronic's with 'Pump Up the Jam' and the hyper-commercialisation of the Eurodance scene were not really comparable with the Aceeeed Overpass Parties typified by the likes of Guy Called Gerald, 808 State etc... leading into FSOL, 4Hero and charting a path to something like Goldie eventually.

Belgian Techno > UK Acid House is not a natural progression versus the dozens of new-wave and synth bands influencing everything from Autechre to 808 State via two specific Madchester studios and the Hacienda/FACT scene spurred on by Tony Wilson following his post-punk departure from Granada. The end of the doc 'Synth Brittania' and the Coogan masterpiece '24 Hour Party People' chart the influences and cross-pollination of the scenes at the time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_Studios https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00n93c6

>> They are the seed that modern electronic music grew from

_A_ seed certainly. Huge debt owed to the 70s UK heads birthing multiple genres just by abusing an EMS VCS 3 if you want to track it directly. Berlin School electronica is a thing as well, with the likes of Tangerine Dream predating Kraftwerk. That's without even getting into Schaeffer, Stockhausen or Carlos in terms of cause/effect.

>> I think, aside from some interesting recording techniques pioneered at Abbey Road by George Martin, they’re not that influential

I mean 'Helter Skelter' alone is a legitimate precursor to Heavy Metal as a Genre, and the amount of double-tracking and tape-loop tricks they introduced post-musique concréte alone would fill a wiki, but asides from that:

- First ever band to perform in a Stadium - First rock band with a backwards guitar solo - First band to use a Symphony Orchestra - First rock band concept Album - First band to print lyrics on the back of an album cover - First rock band to use a Moog Synthesiser - First to use feedback deliberately and intentionally on a rock recording - First band to use Artificial Double Tracking (ADT) - First band to Multi-mike drum-kits

Abbey Road alone probably has a dozen more 'firsts' fwiw.

[Lio]

> Belgian Techno > UK Acid House is not a natural progression

I had to laugh at the idea of Technotronic being a big influence, that just makes me think of Philomena Cunk.

However, (off the top of my head) LFO, Orbital and Luke Slater have all listed Belgian EBM acts like Front 242 as inspiration.

Front 242 list Kraftwerk as an inflence so there is a lineage.

[piltdownman]

If I wanted to get all Cunk about it, I'd have made a passionate argument for "Doctorin' the Tardis" being the ultimate precursor to all American EDM given its role as the precursor to 'What Time Is Love?' - the acid-house chart-topper in 1989 that birthed Stadium-House and the sort of cacophonous Stadium House/Electronica you'd associate with a 16 bit Beat-Em-Up's Menu music.

The KLF - to paraphrase Coogan as Tony Wilson '...the only bona fide geniuses in this story'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctorin%27_the_Tardis

[louthy]

> Lol, Belgian acts like Technotronic's with 'Pump Up the Jam' and the hyper-commercialisation of the Eurodance scene were not really comparable …

I didn’t say that. I said Belgian techno, not Eurodance, specifically the scene itself, which inspired the UK rave scene (amongst other influences like acid house, which is a different lineage).

The Belgian hardcore techno [1] DJs would play Detroit techno and over time that evolved to have more rave elements like the big synth stabs, hoovers, etc. that then evolved into the hardcore breakbeat sound that dominated the UK rave scene.

From the link [1]:

”Hardcore (also known as hardcore techno)[4][5] is a genre of electronic dance music that originated in the Netherlands, Belgium, and Germany[6] in the early 1990s...

In 1990, German producer Marc Trauner (also known as Mescalinum United) released the first hardcore techno track with "We Have Arrived".[17][18] The British group Together released its track "Hardcore Uproar", also in 1990. Music journalist Simon Reynolds has written books on hardcore techno, covering bands related to the Belgium hardcore scene like Second Phase and T99 or Dutch hardcore bands such as L.A. Style and Human Resource. Many of the iconic "stabs" that would become part of hardcore were popularized by these and other Belgian techno producers during the early 1990s, like the "Mentasm"[19] and the "Anastasia" stabs.[20] In the early 1990s, the terms "hardcore" and "darkcore" were also used to designate some more aggressive or high tempo forms of techno, breakbeat and drum and bass which were very popular in England, and from which have emerged several famous producers like N-Joi, The Prodigy, Altern-8 and Goldie. One of the earliest uses of the word in the context of English releases/the English rave scene which gained prominence was 1990's "Hardcore Uproar" by Together. The track's title was derived from a promoter of acid house parties of the same name that hosted controversial raves in and around the town of Blackburn, and was agreed on between the members of Together and Hardcore Uproar's organisers in exchange for letting them feature a recording of the crowd at one of their nights in the track. Symbolically, according to Together member Suddi Raval, the night they attended to acquire the recording also turned out to be the final event under the Hardcore Uproar banner before its founders were forced to disband and stop the raves by the police. A slogan associated with these events and the anti-establishment ethos behind them, "High On Hope", was later used on a 1991 release on Blackburn-based label All Around the World, aptly under the artist name Hardcore Uproar.[21][22] Later English hardcore introduced sped up hip-hop breakbeats, piano breaks, dub and low frequency basslines and cartoon-like noises, which has been retrospectively called 'old skool' hardcore (a.k.a. breakbeat hardcore) and is widely regarded as the progenitor of happy hardcore (which later lost the breakbeats) and jungle (which alternatively lost the techno style keyboard stabs and piano breaks”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardcore_(electronic_dance_mus...

[piltdownman]

Well to start with, acid house had a different lineage as you acknowledge and was the predominant genre throughout the UK Rave Scene up to the Hacienda (ignoring the regional Happy Hardcore and chart-breakers like Ebenezer Good).

Baby Ford's - "Oochy Koochy (FU Baby Yeah Yeah)": Widely regarded as the first British acid house track, was released in 1988. "Voodoo Ray", the de facto anthem of the period by A Guy Called Gerald, was released in 1989. 'Pacific State' by 808 State - the infamous closing track at the Hacienda at the height of the period - was released in 1989.

The reason I bring up 'Pump up the Jam' is that it was the earliest contemporaneous electronic music from any of the Belgian scenes to break the UK charts - doing so in November 1989.

Comparatively the first hardcore techno track of any description released was in 1990. T99's Anaesthesia was probably the entry point for Belgian Hardcore into the UK when it charted in the middle of 1991.

Q.E.D. It's hard to inspire a scene when you come after it chronologically.

Energy Flash by Simon Reynolds is worth a read as cited; that Wiki entry has a serious whiff of Ishkur's Guide to it in comparison.

I mean you can basically attribute the Belgian Techno scene to the American Joey Beltram (who released Mentasm as second Phase) and the Alpha Juno-2 B86 preset if you want to get that reductive. Similar bit of sophistry in grouping in The Prodigy and Goldie due to the journalist usage of "hardcore" and "darkcore" - at best you might describe Experience as broadly "breakbeat hardcore".

Also "jungle (which alternatively lost the techno style keyboard stabs and piano breaks” - are we completely ignoring Metalheadz as a label? Lemon D/Dilinja in particular who bridged the breakbeat/jungle divide, stabs and piano breaks intact.

[louthy]

Yeah keep doubling down by making irrelevant links to points not made.

> Baby Ford's - "Oochy Koochy (FU Baby Yeah Yeah)": Widely regarded as the first British acid house track, was released in 1988.

Irrelevant to the discussion.

> "Voodoo Ray", the de facto anthem of the period by A Guy Called Gerald, was released in 1989.

Irrelevant to the discussion.

> 'Pacific State' by 808 State - the infamous closing track at the Hacienda at the height of the period - was released in 1989.

Irrelevant to the discussion.

> The reason I bring up 'Pump up the Jam' is that it was the earliest contemporaneous electronic music from any of the Belgian scenes to break the UK charts - doing so in November 1989.

It was irrelevant when you brought it up the first time and it still is now you've clarified why you mentioned it.

> Comparatively the first hardcore techno track of any description released was in 1990. T99's Anaesthesia was probably the entry point for Belgian Hardcore into the UK when it charted in the middle of 1991.

'probably' - the tracks mentioned in my original comment had an outsized effect on the scene. The chord-memory stabs and hoover noises from the Roland Alpha Juno in particular - I have two, the preset isn't usable out of the box, and needs tweaking to get the well known hoover sound to be usable in a track. This is the original preset on my soundcloud [1] for anyone that's interested and isn't tired of this turgid exchange.

Also, hilarious that you think that the charts were even remotely relevant to people going to the raves. You keep mentioning chart based music which tells me you don't understand what were underground music scenes. Yes, some music broke through, but the good stuff was underground.

> Q.E.D. It's hard to inspire a scene when you come after it chronologically.

Hilarious that you think you've proven something. You've mentioned another influence path, I never said that the only influence on the rave scene was the Belgian techno scene. All music is the sum total of its influences. Amongst other influences are funk, soul, disco, ragga, and dub.

Ishkur’s guide is littered with omissions and errors. It shouldn’t be taken seriously. But that wiki does not "whiff of Ishkur's Guide", you just don't like that it agrees with my position, so you're throwing shade on it. 'Energy Flash' is ok, but is still an incomplete view. I don't need to refer to any guide or book anyway, mostly because I was there, and experienced the scene myself, first hand.

> Belgian Techno scene to the American Joey Beltram (who released Mentasm as second Phase)

Are you just throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks now? The Belgian Techno scene didn't just consist of music made by Belgians, as I have already stated.

> at best you might describe Experience as broadly "breakbeat hardcore".

It is old-skool hardcore aka breakbeat hardcore.

> Also "jungle (which alternatively lost the techno style keyboard stabs and piano breaks” - are we completely ignoring Metalheadz as a label? Lemon D/Dilinja in particular who bridged the breakbeat/jungle divide, stabs and piano breaks intact.

Mentioning two mainstream names again says to me you only have a surface level understanding here. And your timing is all wrong.

Metalheadz kicked off in ‘94. The peak year for Jungle was ‘92 before the drum’n’bass sound took over, I even have a mix of 92/93 jungle on my soundcloud [2].

Dilinja’s first release was ‘91 but it was mostly poorly produced hardcore early on. I don’t consider him a jungle pioneer at all, more later for drum’n’bass.

If you're picking those two examples out for jungle it shows you know nothing about the genre.

[1] https://soundcloud.com/paullouth/alpha-juno-hoover-thru-ssl-...

[2] https://on.soundcloud.com/9hcXcouaPEWqGfVOps