[mnmalst]

Are you really saying you can see an apple in the same way you see an apple with eyes opened? The exact same way? So if you close your eyes, imagine an apple and then look at an apple that someone holds in front of your eye, the apple looks exactly the same? As if you could look through your closed eye lids?

[abetusk]

I'm not saying that at all. I think I have aphantasia. For me the score is 1 or 2 to picture that apple.

I was shocked to realize that when people said "imagine in your minds eye", they meant it literally. This seems to be a common experience for people with aphantasia [0].

Note that when I'm close to sleep or dreaming, then yes, my minds eye visualization is close to photographic parity. While awake, its almost completely non-existent.

[0] "I can’t picture things in my mind. I didn’t realize that was unusual" https://www.theguardian.com/wellness/2024/feb/26/what-is-aph...

[mnmalst]

I don't feel like I know better what other people experience talking about it here. :)

Just now, what you wrote for example.

> my minds eye visualization is close to photographic parity.

What does this mean? Does this mean it's literally the exact same experience as if your eyes were open and you are looking at the picture? Or is it more like you imagine it and it's somewhere popping up in the back of your head?

When I read a book for example I can imagine what I read but it's not even close to "seeing" it. It's a completely different sensation and visual fidelity. It's just not "seeing".

[abetusk]

Yes, I often don't realize I'm asleep and dreaming while I dream. It's a common experience for me to dream and think I'm experiencing reality while I'm asleep. Are you saying you have never had a visual dream?

Sometimes when I'm close to sleep or when I'm lucid dreaming, I can visualize things with good fidelity. While I'm awake, I'm almost completely unable to.

[mnmalst]

Interesting!

I experience visual dreams the same way I described imagining the environment when I read. It's a completely different experience than seeing with my eyes open.

[abetusk]

Interesting. So it sounds like you don't even dream visually.

I think for many people, even people with aphantasia, dreaming is akin to watching a movie or actually experiencing the event (myself included). I know the experience is immersive because it's the same feeling as watching a movie, but I can't recall it visually the same way after the fact, while I'm awake.

[joquarky]

I suspect the activated Default Mode Network interferes with the ability to perceive with detailed clarity.

[altruios]

Some people can project the image of an apple into the real world. As in, they are able to imagine an apple on the table that they see with their eyes. They 'see' it, but see that it's a projection. It's a lot like when you have two very similar images (except one change), and you cross your eyes such that they overlap to highlight the change (it's ghostly, as it's only seen in one eye). Same Idea, only instead of the other eye, that projection is coming from your brain.

[mnmalst]

That's interesting, so how can people like that know which is real and which is not? I don't understand it.

[altruios]

Try the crossed eyes 'find the difference' technique. Which is crossing your eyes such that a third image (a blending of the two images: one from each eye) appears between those two images.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvdVBzuGWr4

You can easily understand where the difference is because the data is different between the eyes. The difference appears 'ghostly'. In a similar way, data from the mind's eye is different from data from the physical eyes when those two 'streams of data' are blended.

[mnmalst]

Yes I can do this. I can see the image in the middle the same way as I see each individual image. (But not both at the same time, the outside images get blurry when I focus on the one in the middle).

Anyways, this is nothing like what I experience when I imagine something.

[altruios]

That's what it's like to 'overlay' imagination onto your vision. But that requires - like the eyes focusing correctly - for the 'imagination vision' and the physical vision to 'line up'

your imagination is more like it's in the the back of the head, yeah?

What helped me 'move' where my imagination was (to the front and center), was to do the flame meditation. Which is to focus on a flame in a dark room for a few seconds, close your eyes, and try to retain the phosphene afterglow in the flame shape. and repeating that until you are able to retain image of the flame while your eyes are closed.

Similarly: 'drawing from memory' - particularly from recent short term memory - was another method that had a profound impact on my ability to visualize.

Both of these take time and commitment, but they have worked for me. They may work for you.

[swat535]

I can do this, the best I can describe it is that your brain "knows" you're imagining it so it's different than for example hallucinations.

It's similar to replaying music in your head (if you can do that), you can hear the tune but your ears "know" no music is actually playing.

[nevertoolate]

I suspect that much more people can do it than unable to do it (aphantasia)

[altruios]

I have a suspicion that aphantasia - in some cases - is something that can be trained out of. The mind is a powerful thing.

[nevertoolate]

Might be possible but then you lose aphantasia :)