[some_furry]

This is a weird thread for me to read, as someone who a) works primarily with developer tooling (and not even GUI tooling, I write cryptography stuff usually!), b) is very active in a vibrant community of artists that care about nerd software projects.

I don't, as a rule, ever ask artists to contribute for free, but I still occasionally get gifted art from kind folks. (I'm more than happy to commission them for one-off work.)

Artists tragically undercharge for their labor, so I don't think the goal should be "coax them into contributing for $0" so much as "coax them into becoming an available and reliable talent pool for your community at an agreeable rate". If they're enthusiastic enough, some might do free work from time to time, but that shouldn't be the expectation.

[galagawinkle489]

Why should they work for pay on free software? Nobody expects to be paid to work on the software itself. Yet artists expect to be treated differently.

If it is your job, then go do it as a job. But we all have jobs. Free software is what we do in our free time. Artists don't seem to have this distinction. They expect to be paid to do a hobby.

[ChrisMarshallNY]

Doing a pro graphic design treatment is lot more than just "drawing a few pictures," and picking a color palette.

It usually involves developing a design language for the app, or sometimes, for the whole organization (if, like the one I do a lot of work for, it's really all about one app). That's a big deal.

Logo design is also a much more difficult task than people think. A good logo can be insanely valuable. The one we use for the app I've done a lot of work on, was a quick "one-off," by a guy who ended up running design for a major software house. It was a princely gift.

[Dylan16807]

> Doing a pro graphic design treatment is lot more than just "drawing a few pictures," and picking a color palette.

Are you quoting someone? Yeah it's a real job, and so is programming. I don't think anyone in this conversation is being dismissive about either job.

[ChrisMarshallNY]

You'd be surprised, then, to know that a lot of programmers think graphic design is easy (see the other comment, in this thread), and can often be quite dismissive of the vocation.

As a programmer, working with a good graphic designer can be very frustrating, as they can demand that I make changes that seem ridiculous, to me, but, after the product ships, makes all the difference. I've never actually gotten used to it.

That's also why it's so difficult to get a "full monty" treatment, from a designer, donating their time.

[Dylan16807]

> see the other comment

Which other comment?

If you mean the one saying it's not harder than programming, that's not calling it easy.

[ChrisMarshallNY]

It can be a lot harder. Programming, these days, isn't always that hard.

Very different skillset. There was a comment about how ghastly a lot of software-developed graphical assets can be.

Tasteful creativity does not grow on trees.

[aleph_minus_one]

> It usually involves developing a design language for the app, or sometimes, for the whole organization (if, like the one I do a lot of work for, it's really all about one app). That's a big deal.

> Logo design is also a much more difficult task than people think. A good logo can be insanely valuable. The one we use for the app I've done a lot of work on, was a quick "one-off," by a guy who ended up running design for a major software house. It was a princely gift.

A lot of developers also tend to invest quite an insane amount of work into their preferred open-source project and they do know how complicated their work is, and also how insane the value is that they provide for free.

So, where is the difference?

[ChrisMarshallNY]

There isn't any.

That's my point.

[prepend]

Programming is a big deal too.

It’s not like graphic design is harder than programming.

I’d rather have crappy graphics than pay designers instead of programmers for free oss.

[nemomarx]

It's just more common for artists to do small commission work on the side of a real job. 30 dollars for something is basically a donation or tip in my view, and the community can crowd fund for it the same way bug bounties work I think?

[some_furry]

> Yet artists expect to be treated differently.

Because it's a different job!

Your post is like asking, "Why is breathing free but food costs money?"

[Dylan16807]

Either you're implying that people should code for free, or your analogy is so vague as to be useless.

Yeah it's a different job but they're both jobs. Why should one be free and one not be free?

[some_furry]

Because programmers consent to programming for free. That fact does not, in any way, obligate anyone else to.

[Dylan16807]

The question/skepticism is why the programmers are consenting to this but not the artists.

[allenu]

I suspect some of this is due to the fact that the programmers consenting to do free work already have well-paying jobs, so they have the freedom and time to pursue coding as a hobby for fun as well. Graphic designers and UX designers are already having a hard time getting hired for their specific skills and getting paid well for it, so I imagine it's insulting to be asked to do it for free on top of that.

That said, I don't think it's as simple as that. Coding is a kind of puzzle-solving that's very self-reinforcing and addictive for a certain type of person. Coders can't help plugging away at a problem even if they're not at the computer. Drawing, on the other hand, requires a lot more drudgery to get good, for most people anyway, and likely isn't as addictive.

[melagonster]

Open source/Free software communities are comprised of programmers. People love to help their communities. Sometimes a community contains some artists, but this condition is rare. e.g., Inkscape have some good picture when user open it.

[some_furry]

Why aten't programmers drawing furry porn?

It's really not deep.

[prepend]

Wouldn’t designers consent to designing for free?

This seems like a self selection problem. It’s not about forcing people to work for free. It’s about finding designers willing to work for free (just like everyone else on the project).

[cwillu]

You know that (some) people get paid to work on free software, right?

[ChrisMarshallNY]

It’s a long story, in my case.

There’s a very good reason for me to be asking for gratis work. I regularly do tens of thousands of dollars’ worth of work for free.

[imtringued]

That only works if you form a team with the artist. It doesn't work when the person you're commissioning free stuff from is an external artist who is getting flooded by both paid and unpaid requests. Even a token amount will let them know to prioritize you over the freeloaders.

[ChrisMarshallNY]

This is true. I have paid friends free market rates for work; even though they would have done it for free.

It’s a matter of Respect. It’s really amazing, how treating folks with simple Respect can change everything.

I like working in teams, but I also participate in an organization, where we’re all expected to roll up our sleeves, and pitch in; often in an ad hoc fashion.