[js8]

> I think they are orthogonal at worst, and in agreement at best.

I have considered them being orthogonal, but then the definition of the "shell" and "core" becomes problematic in this comparison. What you call shell in GCSS is not shell in FCIS at all, more like a boundary. Even there it is questionable whether boundary should be more specific than the core. At the core, things can be more integrated than at the boundary, and so it can have more business-specific logic.

The definition question is, if you take an application, where is the business logic, is it in the "core" or not? I would say it is, literally what the application's main purpose is its "core". And "shell" is similarly well-defined. For example, UI without an engine implementing the actual logic is just a "shell".

I am not disputing GP's advice as you understand it, although I feel it is perhaps a little bit simplistic if not tautological ("prefer generic building blocks where possible"), and really muddles up what the core and shell is in the FCIS meaning.

[garethrowlands]

One way to get some intuition with FCIS is to write some Haskell.

Because Haskell programs pretty much have to be FCIS or they won't compile.

How it plays out is...

1. A Haskell program executes side effects (known as `IO` in Haskell). The type of the `main` program is `IO ()`, meaning it does some IO and doesn't return a value - a program is not a function

2. A Haskell program (code with type `IO`) can call functions. But since functions are pure in Haskell, they can't call code in `IO`.

3. This doesn't actually restrict what you can do but it does influence how you write your code. There are a variety of patterns that weren't well understood until the 1990s or later that enable it. For example, a pure Haskell function can calculate an effectful program to execute. Or it can map a pure function in a side-effecting context. Or it can pipe pure values to a side-effecting stream.

[ynhatex]

I used to write lots of haskell before deciding it didn't meet my needs. However, the experience provided lots of long-term benefits, including a FCIS design mindset.

Recently, I did a major python refactoring project, converting a prototype/hack/experiment into a production-quality system. The prototype heavily intermixed IO and app logic, and I needed to write unit tests for the production system. Even with fixtures and mocking, unit testing was painful and laborious, so our test coverage was lousy.

Partitioning the core classes into pure and impure components was the big win. Unit testing became trivial and we caught lots of bugs in the original business logic. More recently, we changed the IO from files to a DB and having encapsulated the IO was also a win.

[urxvtcd]

May I ask you how you model your functional code in Python, in absence of Haskell's algebraic data types?

[ynhatex]

Full algebraic data types wouldn't have added much here. Product types are already everywhere, and we didn't need sum or exponential types.

Splitting IO and pure code was just routine refactoring, not a full redesign. Our app logic wasn't strictly pure because it generates pseudorandom numbers and logs events, but practically speaking, splitting the IO and shell from the relatively pure app logic made for much cleaner code.

In retrospect, I consider FCIS a good practice that I first learned with Haskell. It's valuable elsewhere, even when used in a less formal way than Haskell mandates.

[js8]

I agree with the suggestion to study Haskell, I like Haskell quite a lot (although I don't write applications in it).

[Twisol]

> then the definition of the "shell" and "core" becomes problematic in this comparison

I agree -- if you're trying to make the words "shell" and "core" mean the same things between FCIS and GCSS, or identify the same parts of a program, then there will be problems. I think FCIS and GCSS are just two different ways of analyzing a program into pieces. Just as the number 8 can be seen through addition as 3 + 8 and through multiplication as 2 * 4, a program can be analyzed in multiple ways. If you view a program through the lens of FCIS, you expect to see a broad region of the program in which side-effects don't occur and a narrow region in which they do. If you view a program through the lens of GCSS, you expect to see broad parts of the program that solve general problems, and narrower regions in which those problems are instantiated in specific. The narrower regions are all "shell"-shaped, but that doesn't mean they are "the" shell. They have in common simply that they wrap a bulk of functionality to interface it to a larger context.

> At the core, things can be more integrated than at the boundary, and so it can have more business-specific rules.

I tend to disagree. Decomposition is a fundamental part of software engineering: we decompose a large problem into smaller ones, solve those, them compose those solutions into a solution to the large problem (c.f. Parnas' "On the criteria to be used in decomposing systems into modules"). It is often easier to solve a more general problem than the one originally given (Polya's principle). Combining the two yields GCSS.

A solution to each individual small problem can be construed as having its own generic core, and the principles used in composing sibling solutions constitute the specific shells that wrap them, allow them to interface, and together implement a solution to a higher-level problem.

Because there are multiple of these "cores", each solving a decomposed part of the top-level problem, it's hard for me to see how "At the core, things can be more integrated than at the boundary".

> The definition question is, if you take an application, where is the business logic, is it in the "core" or not?

I don't mean to be a sophist, but I think I need a more precise meaning of "business logic" before I can answer this question. In the process of solving successively smaller (and more general) problems, we abstract away from the totality of the business problem being solved, and address smaller and less-specific aspects of that problem. It may be that each subproblem's solution is architected as an individual instance of FCIS, as is often argued for microservice architectures; or that each subproblem is purely functional and only the top-level solution is wrapped in an imperative core; or anywhere in between. Needless to say, I think that choice is orthogonal.

As a result, I would say that the business logic itself has been factorized and distributed across the many subproblems and their solutions, and that indeed the "specific shell"s that are responsible for specializing solutions toward the specific case of the business need may necessarily include business logic. For instance, when automating a business process, one often needs to perform a complex step A before a complex step B. While both A and B might be independently solvable, orchestrating them together is still "business logic", because they need to be performed in order according to business needs.

(In all of this, perhaps you can see why I don't think the "core" and "shell" of FCIS should be identified with the "core" and "shell" of GCSS. Words are allowed to have contextual meanings!)

[js8]

"Words are allowed to have contextual meanings"

Sure, but this discussion is about FCIS, that's the context, and the GP should consider that.

" think I need a more precise meaning of "business logic" before I can answer this question"

Well, some examples. A tax application - the tax calculation according to the law. A word processor - layouting and rendering engine. A video game - something that calculates the state of the world, according to the rules of the game.

So a game is a good example where the core can be more specialized than the shell. You can imagine a generic UI library shared by a bunch of games, but a generic game rules engine - that's just a programming language.

"Decomposition is a fundamental part of software engineering: we decompose a large problem into smaller ones, solve those, them compose those solutions into a solution to the large problem"

There is a big misconception in SW engineering that the above decomposition always exists in a meaningful way. Take the tax calculation for example. That cannot be decomposed into pieces that are generic, and potentially reusable elsewhere. It's just a list of rules and exceptions that need to be implemented as stated. You can decompose it into "1st part of calculation" and "2nd part of calculation", but that's meaningless (unhelpful). (Similarly for the game example above, the rules only exist in the context of other rules.)

Surprisingly many problems are like that, and that makes them kinda difficult to test.

[Izkata]

> Take the tax calculation for example. That cannot be decomposed into pieces that are generic, and potentially reusable elsewhere. It's just a list of rules and exceptions that need to be implemented as stated. You can decompose it into "1st part of calculation" and "2nd part of calculation", but that's meaningless (unhelpful). (Similarly for the game example above, the rules only exist in the context of other rules.)

As someone who does this himself for taxes, you're looking only at the "specific shell" part. The generic core is the thing that does the math - spreadsheet, database, whatever. The tax rules are then imposed on top of that core.

[js8]

Well you can claim that the core is the programming language, in which we write those tax rules, but that's not a very useful distinction IMHO (for how to write programs in the language).

[Izkata]

That's only the case where a usable generic core already exists. A great example where it didn't exist is python's "requests" library: https://requests.readthedocs.io/en/latest/

The example on the homepage is the "specific shell" - simple and easy to use, and by far the most common usage, but if you scroll down the table of contents on the API page (https://requests.readthedocs.io/en/latest/api/) you'll see sections titled "Lower-Level Classes" and "Lower-Lower-Level Classes" - that's the generic core, which the upper level is implemented in terms of.

[Twisol]

I like this example :) Another good example might be Git's distinction between "porcelain" and "plumbing"; the porcelain is implemented in terms of the plumbing, and gives a nicer* interface in terms of what people generally want to do with Git, but the plumbing is what actually does all the general, low-level stuff.

* opinions vary

[Twisol]

> Take the tax calculation for example. That cannot be decomposed into pieces that are generic, and potentially reusable elsewhere.

Quite right! However, the tax code does change with some regularity, and we can expect that companies like Intuit should have gotten quite good by now -- even on a pure profit motive -- at making it possible to relatively quickly modify only the parts of their products that require updating to the latest tax code. To put it another way, while it might be the case that the tax code for any given year is not amenable to decomposition, all tax codes within a certain span of years might be specific instances of a more general problem. (I recall a POPL keynote some years back that argued for formalizing tax codes in terms of default logic!) By solving that general problem, you can instantiate your solution on the given year's tax code without needing to recreate the entire program from scratch.

To be clear, I'm the one who brought subproblem decomposition into the mix, and we shouldn't tar the top-level commenter with that brush unnecessarily. Of course some problems will be un-decomposable "leaves". I believe their original point, about a specific business layer sitting on top of a more general core, still applies.

> So a game is a good example where the core can be more specialized than the shell. You can imagine a generic UI library shared by a bunch of games, but a generic game rules engine - that's just a programming language.

As it happens, the "ECS pattern" (Entity, Component, and System) is often considered to be a pretty good way of conceptualizing the rules of a game. An ECS framework solves the general problem (of associating components to entities and executing the systems that act over them), and a game developer adapts an ECS framework to their specific needs. The value in this arrangement is precisely that, as the game evolves and takes shape, only the logic specific to the game needs to be changed. The underlying ECS framework is on the whole just as appropriate for one game as for any other.

(I could also make a broader point about game engines like Unity and Unreal, and how so many games these days take the "general" problem solved by these engines and adapt them to the "specific" problem of their particular game. In general, nobody particularly wants to make engine-level changes for each experiment during the development of a game, even though sometimes a particular concept for a game demands a new engine.)

> Sure, but this discussion is about FCIS, that's the context, and the GP should consider that.

I understood the original commenter as criticizing FCIS (or at least the original post, as "grasping for straws") and suggesting that GCSS is generally more appropriate. In that context, I think it's natural to interpret their use of "core" and "shell" as competing rather than concordant with FCIS.