[wlkr]

It would be helpful to see some additional stats, like the number of issues and the last update. Of course, these are only heuristics, but they are still helpful to see. It's often pointed out that one of the great things about Clojure is that the libraries generally don't need updating that often because the language is pretty stable. However, quite often I do find that libraries have a number of long open issues or depend on outdated, sometimes insecure, versions of Java libraries. I realise that I'm complaining about free code, so 'fork it and contribute' is a valid response, but at the risk of further fragmentation and yet another library that exists for just a short period.

Separately, I do wish Clojure would adopt a bit more of an opinionated way of doing things and coalesce around some solid core/common libraries that the official docs could point to. This year, Clojure didn't make it into the named languages list on the Stack Overflow developer survey (1.2% in 2024). It's clear that it's not all that popular, even though there's some commercial backing and a friendly community, and there just aren't enough developers to support a myriad of different ways of doing things. I do feel there needs to be a focus on getting beginners in, and that means helping them to do things easily.

[weavejester]

> This year, Clojure didn't make it into the named languages list on the Stack Overflow developer survey (1.2% in 2024).

Clojure is clearly a niche language, but Stack Overflow is also not a place that Clojure developers typically go, so Clojure usage there is going to be under reported.

> I do wish Clojure would adopt a bit more of an opinionated way of doing things and coalesce around some solid core/common libraries that the official docs could point to.

Solid core/common libraries to do what?

[johnfn]

> Clojure is clearly a niche language, but Stack Overflow is also not a place that Clojure developers typically go, so Clojure usage there is going to be under reported.

It seems unclear to me why Clojure developers would not go to Stack Overflow, and especially unclear why they would avoid SO more than developers in other niche languages. When I learned Clojure, I spent a very long time on SO.

I suppose I’m just a little skeptical. I often hear similar sounding rationales - “oh don’t worry, <my favorite language/technology> is under-represented by the data”. Somehow every niche technology is underreported by the data! But to an outside observer, Clojure to me seems to be used very rarely in the types of engineering work I come in contact with, and 1% doesn’t seem that wrong to me.

[dragandj]

OTOH, 1% of a large group is still quite a lot. How many programmers are there in the world? Google says estimated 47 million. 1% of that is almost half a million people. If there are half a million Clojure programmers, Clojure is quite a successful technology! (Sadly, I doubt there are that many)...

[weavejester]

Stack Overflow is one of those sites that benefit from a network effect. If there are few users of a particular technology on it, people are less likely to get questions answered and therefore less likely to interact with it again.

That said, it's always worth checking the numbers, so I took a look at the 2024 State of Clojure Survey. Around 18% of those surveyed used Stack Overflow, while the 2024 Python Developers Survey had at least 43% of respondents using Stack Overflow.

Now, you might well say that even so Clojure is still a niche language - and I agree. But it may be the case that instead of a 1.3% share, Clojure has a 3% share - if we assume that the Python community's usage numbers are more typical.

[johnfn]

I’m not sure if you can draw that conclusion. The clojure survey asks where users went to interact with other people who use Clojure. Who interacts with people on SO? I’m sure a vast majority just read the answer and move on. It makes sense that a Slack server would be the #1 result.

The Python question is more broad: “Where do you typically learn about [python]?”

[weavejester]

Posting a question on SO and having it answered is interacting with people. I'm unsure how you could interpret that any other way. And given that podcasts and YouTube were part of the answers, I think it's clear that passively listening to people counts as an interaction as well within the context of the question.

The Python question I'd say is more narrow, as it asks specifically about "new tools and technologies". What if I have a question about an tool I've been using for a while?

In any case, my point is not what market share Clojure actually has, but that there's reasonable doubt in using SO's developer survey as a basis for that answer. If a far smaller percentage of the Clojure community uses SO than is average for a language, then it's going to skew the results.

[johnfn]

> Posting a question on SO and having it answered is interacting with people. I'm unsure how you could interpret that any other way.

Yes, but a large percentage of people use SO without posting a question - e.g. an answer pops up in a google result.

[wlkr]

Thanks for responding, and, especially recognising the name, thanks for all your work on the Clojure ecosystem! To answer the question, for me personally, it would be largely full-stack web and data science tooling, but that's just me. I was moreso thinking out loud about the posted project and highlighting libraries that could be semi-official or strongly recommended by the community. The Clojure community offers many different libraries that, on the surface, are similar, even if each addresses a particular set of concerns. For a lowly idiot like me without enough time to spend writing code in Clojure, I'd love to just be directed to those used by the experts and have solid backing and anticipated longevity - 'gold star' libraries.

[brettatoms]

I added an issue for this comment: https://github.com/brettatoms/clojure.land/issues/5

[pgt]

Metrics that would be valuable:

- age + adoption over time

- number of bug issues (as confirmed by author) over time (is it going up or down?).