[antasvara]

Having been through Montessori, I think it's fantastic for kids that are naturally self-driven. I had a great time when it came to learning science and English (the two subjects I cared the most about).

Howrver, I was also pretty far behind in math for reasons unrelated to ability (standardized testing and secondary educational success indicate that I'm actually pretty good at math). I also left with very underdeveloped time management and study skills.

Could these downsides have been mitigated? Definitely, and my parents largely made sure they were. But in talking to my peers at the time, my parents after the fact, and parents of to hers that went to Montessori schools, I think the general idea holds.

Point being that self driven education is fantastic for a lot of reasons. But it will also let a lot of kids stay far behind their ability if not carefully monitored.

[ianbicking]

I think there might be a pattern across education with a strong ideology (Montessori, Waldorf, Classical education, etc) that they aren't very good at recognizing when the ideology is failing a kid. The relatively weak and mushy educational philosophy of a normal public school is also a somewhat reasonable way to run a school that has to take kids wherever they are at and wherever they came from.

[antasvara]

>that they aren't very good at recognizing when the ideology is failing a kid.

I would amend this somewhat to say that most ideologies have aspects that are much less effective in practice than they are in theory. I think this matches your sentiment, but addresses the likely rebuttal of "But X method has this specific element designed to address the shortcoming."

[em-bee]

I was also pretty far behind in math for reasons unrelated to ability. I also left with very underdeveloped time management and study skills.

if that is the case you didn't experience a good montessori program, because that should have taken care of that.

[antasvara]

Nope, fully accredited Montessori school and trained Montessori teachers.

I'm actually a huge fan of Montessori schools, including the one I went to. It was a great experience.

But in my experience and the experience of a lot of others I've talked to, Montessori schools aren't perfect. The method does really well fostering natural curiosity and harnessing it for learning. Essentially, it develops internal motivation super successfully.

But, as I've seen and heard from plenty of parents and at least one teacher, the method struggles with students that can't find that internal motivation. The sort of freedom a Montessori classroom gives you is not ideal for everyone. I think it's okay to admit that.

[em-bee]

the method struggles with students that can't find that internal motivation

it was my impression that this should not be a problem, but i have to admit that my knowledge and experience with montessori is not enough to understand why this would or would not be the case.

if this is really a problem, it needs to be addressed, and i would find it surprising if it hasn't already been solved in the meantime. i don't believe that this is a new problem.

[antasvara]

I don't doubt that it's a solvable problem. Basically any educational method claims to work for every kid, and in theory they all do.

I just think that any method of education is a series of tradeoffs. Time management and difficulty working on thing you don't like (and a lot of this is personal experience, both my own and in discussions with others) seems to be the largest tradeoff.

Bottom line is that almost no system gets implemented perfectly, so it's important to understand the common "failure" points. This seems to be the Montessori one.

Thats not to say this is a bad thing! Depending on your beliefs, decreased study skills and/or mediocre time management are way less important than maintaining a natural curiosity. But the skills some kids end up missing are very important in traditional schooling environments like universities and high schools.

[em-bee]

any educational method claims to work for every kid

it's not about the claim. we can't afford it not to. at least not for a system that we would like to apply nationwide (which is what i would like to do with montessori) because we don't always have the luxury of multiple schools in one region where kids can switch. maybe not even the luxury of multiple streams in one school, esp. in rural areas where there barely enough students for a single class. (at least by putting multiple years into one class, you need less students from each age group to fill a class, which makes smaller schools possible)

as a specialized school, not being able to handle very kind of student is fine. as a general school that would be a problem.

Time management and difficulty working on thing you don't like

what bothers me is that montessori is supposed to teach exactly that because you have more freedom to manage you time. so i can't accept that this is montessori's failure point. because it should not be. this is to vital a skill to miss out on. i don't know the answer for this. i am not nearly familiar enough with how he montessori method is supposed to work here.

[rkomorn]

Sounds like a no true Scotsman: "If it didn't work, it wasn't good Montessori."

[em-bee]

rather it wasn't montessori period. as it has been mentioned multiple times, the name montessori is not protected. anyone can claim to be a montessori teacher even if they didn't get any training. my wife went through AMI training. i have observed it at times. it is rigorous. and i have observed classes with trained teachers. the difference is noticeable

what i am saying is more like: if you didn't learn math in school you didn't have a good teacher. because no good teacher would fail at teaching you math. that's the very definition of what a good teacher is, and it is the definition of what good montessori is. the no true scotsman fallacy does not apply here.

if the expected outcome is not achieved, they were not doing it right.

[sersi]

My son goes to an AMI accredited school with AMI accredited teachers only. In general parents in elementary rave about the school. However, we did talk to a few parents whose kids are in elementary that had the same problem with mathematics. Their kids weren't interested in Math and they didn't do as much as they could do. The teacher did try to push a bit and the kids didn't do no mathematics but they were easily one year below what they should be. One of our close friend who had that specific problem with his daughter solved it easily with tuition but complains that it shouldn't be the case.

In kindergarten (casa), there's a lot of structure with individualised work and a child is unlikely to have gaps in a specific subject. On the other hand, I think that in elementary with the stronger focus on group projects, it's easier for certain subject to fall by the wayside if a student doesn't particularly care for them.

[rkomorn]

So every good Montessori school has a 100% success rate? Edit: and corollary, I guess, any Montessori school that has less than 100% success rate is not a good Montessori school?

> the no true scotsman fallacy does not apply here.

I don't buy this at all.

[em-bee]

the no true scotsman fallacy goes like this: no true scotsman would to X, but then you find one that does X.

but the situation here is more like: no true scotsman doesn't have scottisch ancestors or at least live in scotland.

i don't have scottish ancestors, and i have never even been there, so i can't ever be a true scotsman, as much as i'd like to be one.

it doesn't have to be a 100% success rate but being pretty far behind in math is a serious failure that makes me question the qualification of the teacher.

it can't be a failure of the montessori method because the very design and goal of the method is to not let that happen. or at least the chance is very small. and then it is still a failure of the teacher and not the method.

and since anyone can claim to do montessori without any certification, my bet is on that being the case.

it would be like a car without wheels. no true car is missing wheels. it could not fulfill its purpose.

[antasvara]

>it can't be a failure of the montessori method because the very design and goal of the method is to not let that happen. or at least the chance is very small. and then it is still a failure of the teacher and not the method.

High intensity interval training (HIIT) is an exercise method that involves very short (think under 5 minutes) intetvals of max effort exercise followed by breaks. This methodology validates very well in scientific literature, both conceptually and in exercise studies that show impressive fitness gains.

It also, by many accounts from researchers and participants, sucks super hard to do correctly. You need to be putting in truly grueling amounts of effort during the intervals to see the advertised benefits. Most people, even when they try to do this, aren't doing it correctly.

I think you could say two things about someone that's not seeing results from HIIT:

1. HIIT is super effective; if you're not getting good results, it's because you're doing it incorrectly. 2. HIIT is not actually a reasonable exercise regimen for most people; this means it's not a great exercise regimen.

Statement 1 is logically true. Statement 2 can be more or less true depending on the theory (walking 20 minutes a day is a lot more reasonable than requiring total exhaustion, whereas a theoretical routine that requires Tasering yourself is less reasonable and makes Statement 2 much more true).

What I've described as my experience in Montessori is definitely Statement 2. I'm sure the method has ways to combat my problems, and if I had gone to a "better" Montessori school it's entirely possible they would have dealt with them. But from what I've seen, these specific problems crop up enough that I think they're a fair criticism.

[ip26]

Intervening when they are merely far behind their ability!? Sounds like imposing adult anxieties onto the natural development path of a child!

[antasvara]

Sure, there's an element of that. But I think it's fair to say that life involves doing things you don't want to do sometimes and Montessori struggles with that.