[thijson]

It seems like whatever party gets into power, suddenly doesn't want to change the system they inherited. I remember Trudeau talking about eliminating first past the post in Canadian elections. But once he got into power he forgot about it.

We need a way to vote for popular ideas via referendum at the federal level. That might get it through.

[JumpCrisscross]

> seems like whatever party gets into power, suddenly doesn't want to change the system

“The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution” [1].

No President. No courts. Partisanship may work to our advantage in a divided government. What you would need, however, to reach two thirds is some members of the President’s party signing on. That could happen if the President is taking a dump in the polls, and the opposition looks likely (but isn’t yet assured) to gain the Presidency next term.

> We need a way to vote for popular ideas via referendum at the federal level

We need a plebiscite institution. But that can be done at state level for Constitutonal amendment approval. What we don’t want is direct democracy proposing amendments. California is a modern example of why republics are more stable than pure democracies, for anyone who forgot about Athens.

[mrguyorama]

>California is a modern example of why republics are more stable than pure democracies

California is one state among 50. People using it as an example of some sort of government being bad are objectively in bad faith.

Please inform me how my state's citizen referendums are bad? We are about to have a vote on voter ID laws, which I do not approve of, but what's important is that the people who care are able to have their will made manifest, and it will actually go up for a vote.

Meanwhile nordic countries have vastly more direct democracies and don't have the problems you insist.

If you cannot make your argument without california, you do not have an argument, because california's shitty government predates democrat control, because it was always built as this crazy world where rich and connected people had control. California's government is built wrong, not because of democracy, but against it.

[JumpCrisscross]

> inform me how my state's citizen referendums are bad?

Straw man. Nobody claimed this.

> nordic countries have vastly more direct democracies and don't have the problems you insist

What are you referring to? “Finland has traditionally relied on the representative form of government, with very limited experience of the deployment of the referendum in national decision-making” [1]. And while Sweden and Norway have referenda, neither has binding referenda on demand or even a requirement for referendum to amend the constitution [2].

> if you cannot make your argument without california, you do not have an argument

California features the largest and most powerful direct-democratic institution, its referenda, in America. It’s going to come up when we discuss direct democracy.

That said, I have no idea how you reach my comment and conclude that California is not only the only argument I make against direct democracy, but even essential to it.

> california's shitty government predates democrat control

Are you mixing up direct democracy and rule by Democrats, the party?

[1] https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-349-24796-7_...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_by_country

[BrenBarn]

> What we don’t want is direct democracy proposing amendments.

I think the opposite. That is exactly what we need. A lot of the problem we have come from the fact that the constitution speaks almost entirely in terms of what various government bodies do and provides no way for the people to directly override government actions they disagree with. This has led us to our current situation which is based on politicians exploiting loopholes (e.g., gerrymandering, stacking various judicial/administrative posts, manipulating voting laws, etc.) in order to preserve their position against potential electoral response.

In some cases these problems have been overcome or mitigated at the state level. . . via ballot measures. In California, for instance.

> California is a modern example of why republics are more stable than pure democracies, for anyone who forgot about Athens.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but from where I'm standing California looks a lot more sane and stable than the US as a whole.

[GuinansEyebrows]

> What we don’t want is direct democracy proposing amendments. California is a modern example of why republics are more stable than pure democracies, for anyone who forgot about Athens.

speak for yourself. the proof of the pudding is in the eating, as evidenced by the current political climate in the US.

[JumpCrisscross]

> the proof of the pudding is in the eating, as evidenced by the current political climate in the US

We're not a direct democracy. You can't find proof of a pudding in a taco bowl.

Direct democracies fail in self-reinforcing factionalism. "When a majority is included in a faction, the form of popular government...enables it to sacrifice to its ruling passion or interest both the public good and the rights of other citizens." This has consistently happened across history, even in small direct democracies, it's one of the essential takeaways from the Athenian experiment [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Socrates

[everfrustrated]

In history generally the only way governments are ever restructured is through civil war (or invasion).

[lovich]

Every amendment to the constitution restructured the government. We are certainly in an era of high divisiveness and a Congress that had abdicated all of its powers to the other branches so that they’re never caught actually holding a position, but the US government system has restructuring built into it

[JumpCrisscross]

> In history generally the only way governments are ever restructured is through civil war (or invasion)

This is total crap. Tale of Two Cities is set against the backdrop of Britain’s reforms, in contrast to the French Revolution. America has peacefully seen through Teddy Roosevelt’s trust busting, FDR’s New Deal and the Civil Rights Era, each peaceful restructurings of how our government works.

Revolutions transfer and consolidate power. Reforms broaden them. Those who miss this lesson of history and fall for glorified fictions of peasants’ revolts earn a consistent fate across millennia of human history.

Side note: strongly recommend https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6E4_Bcmscg&t=14s

[seanmcdirmid]

Uhm, the Republicans will change their mind quickly when the next Democrat president takes control with the expanded powers they inherited from the Trump administration (even the Supreme court doesn't like to contradict itself so quickly). I'm pretty sure...if America survives at all, we will have a constitutional convention really soon that push through changes because the current status quo has become an unstable mess.

[selectodude]

I trust the gang of six’s use of the shadow docket is cleverly designed to make sure only a republican president meets their unitary executive theories.

[jamesblonde]

Do you think they will let the Democrats take control given the risk to them if they take control? I see Gerrymandering after the supreme court annuls the voting rights acts. And then more shennanigans for a third term.

[seanmcdirmid]

That's why I premised this with "If America survives at all". There is definitely a possibility that the whole country just falls apart. A constitutional convention is more of a best case scenario.

Gerrymandering is only relevant for congressional house elections, it can't protect the senate and doesn't influence the presidency. Usually one party will take control of all three branches in a huge swing in power, the house is the just the first to flip usually because it is re-elected every 2 years.

[JumpCrisscross]

> constitutional convention is more of a best case scenario

Constitutional Convention is the abort button. It means giving a group of people basically limitless power to amend our Constitution, which in practice, means to do anything to the law. If we called one today, with most states in Republican hands [1], we’d be essentially handing complete control of our government—over and above the Constitution—to the GOP.

[1] https://www.ncsl.org/about-state-legislatures/state-partisan...

[dragonwriter]

> Constitutional Convention is the abort button. It means giving a group of people basically limitless power to amend our Constitution

No, it doesn’t.

It gives a group of people basically limitless power to propose Amendments to the Constitution.

Any Amendments so proposed still require 3/4 of states to ratify them, either by votes of their legislature or by ratification conventions called in the states (at the option of Congress when calling the Convention at the request of states.)

Unless by "group of people" you mean not just the people in the national convention, but the people in the state legislatures or conventions, as well. But, at that point, you might as well say that by including an amendment process, the Constitution itself “gives a group of people basically limitless power to amend our Constitution”.

[JumpCrisscross]

> It gives a group of people basically limitless power to propose Amendments to the Constitution

Sorry, I actually missed this. Thank you for clarifying. (I mixed it up with the New York State process, where the Convention's proposals go straight to popular ratification.)