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by phoronixrly 233 days ago
Closed-source software is unethical regardless of any of your unsubstantiated claims on its or open-source software's security.
4 comments

I hope you understand that ethic is not absolute. It's unethical for you, according to your ethical rules. Doesn't mean that this applies to other people rules too.
Yeah, we're on a site where a large majority of users shamelessly work at adtech companies, and threads regularly pop-up where people defend working at companies actively developing and selling exploits.

I am well aware of that, this is why I remind people that proprietary software is bad actually.

You wrote that "Closed-source software" is unethical, not "harmful software & services" is unethical. There is a significant difference. Don't shift your goal as you like.

Not all closed-source software is harmful; Obsidian here is a prime example of one which is not harmful and could be even considered as beneficial, despite being closed source, because of how open and supportive it's designed in everything else.

> Don't shift your goal as you like.

I was just confirming the point you made -- the definition of ethical is not absolute, and there are people that consider questionable things ethical.

> Obsidian here is a prime example of one which is not harmful and could be even considered as beneficial, despite being closed source

All proprietary software is unethical. It's as simple as that. No matter whether it's free or paid, no matter whether it's useful or harmful. If you have a right to use it but are deprived of the right to alter it, it is not ethical.

Why do you think it's unethical?
Depends on people, but for most it's mainly because Stallman says so.

You still have ethics ground if you think it the same way as repairability, actively blocking ways to repairs things you bought yourself is questionable, and keeping things closed source can be seen as a way to artificially prolonge a strict dependance on your vendor by impairing your ability to resolve issues by yourself.

>Depends on people, but for most it's mainly because Stallman says so

No, for most it's because they evaluated a number of ethical, social, and technical concerns, and think so.

I will assume you're not trolling but that just don't know what FOSS is about. Check this out https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html
You don't have to be ignorant of FOSS to disagree with the statement that closed source software is unethical.
If you don't know recipe for food, it is automatically unethical food?
Not disclosing the ingredients is illegal large part of the world, and people can die if you don’t do that, so the answer is clearly yes in some sense. This is also true for some cooking techniques, like heat treatment of raw meat. I think your analogy is not the best.
Not disclosing ingredients is more like not disclosing dependencies because I am very confident that you can't go into a shop, buy a random food and then construct recipe from list of ingredients.
There are parts of the code which don't use dependencies, because you wrote it. Which part of any food is not created from ingredients?
If the recipe is hidden, yes.

It's probably illegal too, as in many jurisdiction the public, or at least a health/food regulatory body should know the process and ingredients.

Take into account allergens, and on top of a matter of public knowledge and health, it can also be a matter of life and death.

List of ingredients does not a recipe make.

It's like saying "Linux uses C" and now you instantly can copy Linux =)

> List of ingredients does not a recipe make.

It does however play a hugely important role in a recipe, in a way than the choice of language doesn't play in a program (especially considering turing completeness). So the analogy is broken.

Besides nobody made the point that list of ingredients makes a recipe.

Just that it's important to know the list of ingredients for a food you're gonna eat, and that it's even illegal to not disclose them (either to the public or a regulatory body) if you sell food.

> List of ingredients does not a recipe make.

Apologies if the parent comment was edited after you wrote yours but a "process and ingredients" does a recipe make.

As someone who also believes closed source software is unethical (though full of nuance), I don't appreciate the abrasive and combative (and frankly rude) way you are engaging on this. You're so epitomizing the rabid stereotype that part of me thinks you are just trolling and don't actually believe what you are saying.

If you actually care about this, stop alienating potential allies, and ideally start making arguments to support your case instead of telling people to RTFM (which in this case is even worse because "the manual" isn't as much of an authoritative mic drop as you seem to think it is).

this page gives no arguments why nonfree software is unethical
This is the first paragraph after the initial quote defining "free software".

> We campaign for these freedoms because everyone deserves them. With these freedoms, the users (both individually and collectively) control the program and what it does for them. When users don't control the program, we call it a “nonfree” or “proprietary” program. The nonfree program controls the users, and the developer controls the program; this makes the program an instrument of unjust power.

It seems safe to say the author thinks that one creating "an instrument of unjust power" for oneself is unethical. Though, perhaps if the commenter in question pulled that quote out of the article, it could have helped their point.

I am quite thankfull that thanks to unethical software I am able to pay my bills, instead of being like a street art performer hoping to get enough coins at the end of the day.

I was also a dreamer once upon a time, with M$ on my email signature and all that zealot attitude, then I had to support myself and face the reality that most supermarkets don't take pull requests.

Maybe that's because supermarkets would think a "pull request" is just shoplifting?
Many open source projects are written by people who are paid to do so. Just because you couldn't do it doesn't mean it's not possible.
From companies whose main business is selling unethical software.

Naturally I am not counting those, given that they are paid in tainted money as per OP's complaint.

I don't think GPL cares where the money is coming from - we're talking about closed/open source, not ethical business models. If we did, we'd have to also go over unfettered free markets and capital flow.
FOSS and GPL aren't exactly the same thing.

We are surely talking about ethics,

> Closed-source software is unethical regardless of any of your unsubstantiated claims on its or open-source software's security.

And in that regard, there is also something to talk about regarding some prominent figures in open-source world.

Oh, DHH? Not sure how his xenophobic ramblings have anything to do with this...
Try to get by with just open source software, I guarantee you won’t.
First of all, I do get by with just FOSS. Second -- whether you can or cannot get by without proprietary software has no relation to it being objectively unethical.