[jdsully]

The one thing I never understood about these warnings is how they don't run afoul of libel laws. They are directly calling you a scammer and "attacker". The same for Microsoft with their unknown executables.

They used to be more generic saying "We don't know if its safe" but now they are quite assertive at stating you are indeed an attacker.

[crazygringo]

> They are directly calling you a scammer and "attacker".

No they're not. The word "scammer" does not appear. They're saying attackers on the site and they use the word "might".

This includes third-party hackers who have compromised the site.

They never say the owner of the site is the attacker.

I'm quite sure their lawyers have vetted the language very carefully.

[msl]

"The people living at this address might be pedophiles and sexual predators. Not saying that they are, but if your children are in the vicinity, I strongly suggest you get them back to safety."

I think that might count as libel.

[bstsb]

i think it's more akin to "people may have broken in and taken over this house, and within the house there may be sexual predators"

[alt227]

Still asserts that in that house there may be sexual predators. If I lived in that house I wouldnt be happy, and I would want a way of clearing the accusations and proving that there are indeed no sexual predators in my house quicksmart before other people start avoiding it.

[josfredo]

You can’t possibly use the “they use the word ‘might’” argument and not mention the death red screen those words are printed over. If you are referring to abidance to the law, you are technically right. If we remove the human factor, you technically are.

[crazygringo]

> If you are referring to abidance to the law, you are technically right.

Yes, the question was literally about the law.

I wasn't trying to say anything else. I was answering the commenter's legal question.

I don't know what you are trying to imply.

[pasteldream]

> The one thing I never understood about these warnings is how they don't run afoul of libel laws.

I’m not a lawyer, but this hasn’t ever been taken to court, has it? It might qualify as libel.

[altairprime]

I know of no such cases, and would love to know if someone finds one.

[trenchpilgrim]

I worked for a company who had this happen to an internal development domain, not exposed to the public internet. (We were doing security research on our own software, so we had a pentest payload hosted on one of those domains as part of a reproduction case for a vulnerability we were developing a fix for.)

Our lawyers spoke to Google's lawyers privately, and our domains got added to a whitelist at Google.

[modzu]

you only sue somebody poorer than you

[tgsovlerkhgsel]

It depends, if it's a clear-cut case, then in jurisdictions with a functioning legal system it can be feasible to sue.

Likewise, if it's a fuckup that just needs to be put in front of someone who cares, a lawsuit is actually a surprisingly effective way of doing that. This moves your problem from "annoying customer support interaction that's best dealt with by stonewalling" into "legal says we HAVE to fix this".

[heavyset_go]

Imagine if you bought a plate at Walmart and any time you put food you bought elsewhere on it, it turned red and started playing a warning about how that food will probably kill you because it wasn't Certified Walmart Fresh™

Now imagine it goes one step further, and when you go to eat the food anyway, your Walmart fork retracts into its handle for your safety, of course.

No brand or food supplier would put up with it.

That's what it's like trying to visit or run non-blessed websites and software coming from Google, Microsoft, etc on your own hardware that you "own".

[yard2010]

This is the future. Except you don't buy anything, you rent the permission to use it. People from Walmart can brick your carrots remotely even when you don't use this plate, for your safety ofc

[shkkmo]

> The one thing I never understood about these warnings is how they don't run afoul of libel laws. They are directly calling you a scammer and "attacker"

Being wrong doesn't count as libel.

If a company has a detection tool, makes reasonable efforts to make sure it is accurate, and isn't being malicious, you'll have a hard time making a libel case

[jdsully]

There is a truth defence to libel in the USA but there is no good faith defence. Think about it like a traffic accident, you may not have intended to drive into the other car but you still caused damage. Just because you meant well doesn't absolve you from paying for the damages.

[shkkmo]

I'm not sure what exactly you mean by "good faith". The legal standard is "actual malice" which means you had to have either known you were wrong or recklessly disregarded being wrong. Just saying something false about a public figure in a way that causes damages is not enough.

[acoustics]

This is tricky to get right.

If the false positive rate is consistently 0.0%, that is a surefire sign that the detector is not effective enough to be useful.

If a false positive is libel, then any useful malware detector would occasionally do libel. Since libel carries enormous financial consequences, nobody would make a useful malware detector.

I am skeptical that changing the wording in the warning resolves the fundamental tension here. Suppose we tone it down: "This executable has traits similar to known malware." "This website might be operated by attackers."

Would companies affected by these labels be satisfied by this verbiage? How do we balance this against users' likelihood of ignoring the warning in the face of real malware?

[donmcronald]

The problem is that it's so one sided. They do what they want with no effort to avoid collateral damage and there's nothing we can do about it.

They could at least send a warning email to the RFC2142 abuse@ or hostmaster@ address with a warning and some instructions on a process for having the mistake reviewed.

[dpifke]

Spamhaus has been sued—multiple times, I believe—for publishing DNS-based lists used to block email from known spammers.

For instance: https://reason.com/volokh/2020/07/27/injunction-in-libel-cas... (That was a default judgment, though, which means Spamhaus didn't show up, probably due to jurisdictional questions.)

The first step in filing a libel lawsuit is demanding a retraction from the publisher. I would imagine Google's lawyers respond pretty quickly to those, which is why SafeBrowsing hasn't been similarly challenged.