[zzo38computer]

> Notoriously so, it's why MIME types and MIME encodings get so complicated.

I made up ULFI because I thought MIME has some problems.

> JSON may not look efficient

Efficiency is not the only issue; there is also the consideration of e.g. what data types you want to use. JSON does not have a proper integer type, does not have a proper binary data type (you must encode it as hex or base64 instead), and is limited about what character sets can be used.

(Also, like other text formats, escaping will be needed.)

> I feel like "JSON over HTTP" is a subtle improvement over "custom text formats over telnet"

I think it can be, depending on the specific use; sometimes it isn't, and will make it worse. (HTTP does have the advantage of having URLs and virtual hosting, although I think it adds too much complexity more than should be needed.) However, I still think that DER is generally better than JSON.

> HTTP isn't the worst bootstrap layer the internet could use to build new protocols and apps on top of.

I think it depends on the specific application. However, even then, I think there are better ways than using HTTP with the complexity that it involves, most of which should not be necessary (even though a few parts are helpful, such as virtual hosting).

[dotancohen]

  > JSON does not have a proper integer type

What are the drawbacks to using the JavaScript Number (really a double float I think) datatype as an integer in an object representation language such as JSON? I've never seen a use case where e.g. 42 (int) could be confused with 42.0 (float). If your application needs specifically an int or a float, then the ingesting application knows that.

If the answer is monetary values, then those should never be floats, and should not be represented in JSON as such. E.g. a dollar and a half should be represented as 150 cents. This follows even for sub-cent precision.

[cstrahan]

JSON numbers are not JavaScript Numbers.

While the grammar is specified (that’s what JSON is, after all), the runtime representation is unspecified. A conformant JSON parser can parse “1” as 1.0. They can be backed by doubles, or singles, or arbitrary precision.

[dotancohen]

That's exactly my point. If one needs an integer or a float, the parser converts it. I ask under what use case is there ever ambiguity?

[cstrahan]

> If one needs an integer or a float, the parser converts it.

Which parser? That’s the problem: if you’re using JSON as a data interchange format, you’ll need to carefully control both the serializers and deserializers, and whatever libraries you use, they will need to (at least internally) hold onto the number in a lossless way — I am not aware of any libraries that do this. They all parse the number as an f64 before any deserializers run. If your input JSON contains a u128, then you’ll have a loss of precision when your type is deserialized.

If you can set up (de)serialization to work the way you need it, then there’s no problem. But if you share your JSON serialized data with other parties, then you/they may be in for a bit of a surprise.

You might find it a worth while exercise to try parsing JSON containing an arbitrary unsigned 128 bit integer in your language of choice.

[funcDropShadow]

Even if we assume that JSON numbers are JavaScript numbers. There is the problem that some large natural numbers cannot be represented in double or float although some even larger numbers can be represented. This is very bad if you use these numbers as IDs.

    scala> (Long.MaxValue-1)
    val res4: Long = 9223372036854775806
                                                                                
    scala> (Long.MaxValue-1).toDouble.toLong
    val res5: Long = 9223372036854775807

The fact that I used Scala is irrelevant here. That is true for many programming languages that 64 bit long and double types.

[dotancohen]

But that problem is not inherent to JSON, which is a pain text encoding of those numbers.

[zzo38computer]

I don't mean 32-bit integers, but rather, 64-bit (and sometimes bigger) integers. JSON already works OK for 32-bit integers (although it is not ideal).

[RedShift1]

Much easier would just be native decimal support in JS and we can represent a decimal using d as the decimal point, for example 15d0 (15.0) or 384d25 (384.25).

Using cents instead of dollars sounds fine until you have to do math like VAT, you really need decimal math for that.

[afiori]

Many applications simply use strings for that, like for dates