[hombre_fatal]

The problem is that we're already post truth.

Just consider how a screenshot of a tweet or made-up headline already spreads like a wildfire: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1980221072512635117

Sora involves far more work than what is required to spread misinfo.

Finally, people don't really care about the truth. They care about things that confirm their world view, or comfortable things. Or they dismiss things that are inconvenient for their tribe and focus on things that are inconvenient for other tribes.

[nothrabannosir]

> Finally, people don't really care about the truth.

That same link has two “reader notes” about truth.

The lie is half way around the world etc, but that can also be explained by people’s short term instincts and reaction to outrage. It’s not mutually exclusive with caring about truth.

Maybe I’m being uncharitable — did you mean something like “people don’t care about truth enough to let it stop them from giving into outrage”? Or..?

[mat_b]

> Finally, people don't really care about the truth. They care about things that confirm their world view. Or they dismiss things that are inconvenient for their tribe and focus on things that are inconvenient for other tribes.

People have always been this way though. The tribes are just organized differently in the internet age.

[LexiMax]

I strongly suspect future generations are going to look back on the age of trying to cram the entire world into one of several shared social spaces and say "What were those idiots thinking?"

[mcphage]

In our defense (slightly), it was never really possible before, so we didn't previously have an opportunity to learn what a civilization-shatteringly bad idea it was.

[raw_anon_1111]

Oh well, I’ll put it out there. If people cared about verified provable truths, religion of any kind wouldn’t exist.

[philipallstar]

> If people cared about verified provable truths, religion of any kind wouldn’t exist.

Can you provide a verified proof of this statement please?

[raw_anon_1111]

Really? Everything about religion is fantasy and unprovable. Unless you believe that the earth is only 6500 years old, created in 7 days then a few centuries later someone built a boat that took two of each animal in the entire world to save them.

Then fast forward to a man being born from a virgin that rose from the dead three days after being crucified.

[philipallstar]

You seem to be giving examples from one religion. I'm not sure that proves your statement.

[raw_anon_1111]

So you have an example of another religion that is based on scientifically pruvablr facts?

[philipallstar]

I'm assuming you don't care about verified provable truths if you can't prove something before you said it.

[marshfarm]

We're probably post-narrative and post-lexical (words) but haven't become aware of what to possibly update these tools with. Post-truth is an abstraction rooted in the arbitrary.

Reality is specific. Actions, materials. Words and language are arbitrary, they're processes, and they're simulations. They don't reference things, they represent them in metaphors, so sure they have "meaning" but the meanings reduce the specifics in reality which have many times the meaning possibility to linearity, cause and effect. That's not conforming to the reality that exists, that's severely reducing, even dumbing down reality.

[AnimalMuppet]

There is a reality which exists. Words have meaning. Words are more or less true as the meaning they convey conforms more or less well to the reality that exists. So no, truth is not rooted in the arbitrary. Quite the opposite.

Or at least, words had meaning. As we become post-lexical, it becomes harder to tell how well any sequence of words corresponds to reality. This is post truth - not that there is no reality, but that we no longer can judge the truth content of a statement. And that's a huge problem, both for our own thought life, and for society.

[marshfarm]

Words are merely wax fruit metaphors for meaning, they aren't meaningful in and of themselves. That's how dictionaries exist. Any reality understood from words is mere simulation.

[FloorEgg]

Assuming this is all true, what's the most optimistic view you can take looking ~20 years out?

How could all of this wind up leading to a much more fair, kind, sustainable and prosperous future?

Acknowledging risks is important, but where do YOU want all this to go?

[Eisenstein]

As adults already, we grew up with things that are either not relevant or give us the wrong responses to our heuristics.

But the kids who grow up with this stuff will just integrate into their life and proceed. The society which results from that will be something we cannot predict as it will be alien to us. Whether it will be better or not -- probably not.

Humans evolved to spend most of their time with a small group of trusted people. By removing ourselves from that we have created all sorts of problems that we just aren't really that equipped to deal with. If this is solvable or not has yet to be seen.

[FloorEgg]

I don't disagree with any points you made, but I do find it interesting you refused a prompt to imagine a better future, articulate your wants, and practice optimism. That's your choice, but a telling one.

[danaris]

It's really hard to imagine how "truth is harder to find, more people lie with impunity, and convince others that their lies are true" could have a positive outcome.

Moreover, I think it's really hard overall to imagine a better future as long as all of this technology and power is in the hands of massively wealthy people who have shown their willingness to abuse it to maintain that wealth at our expense.

The optimistic future effectively requires some means of reclaiming some of that power and wealth for the rest of us.

[FloorEgg]

Yes, but, overwhelmingly we go where we look. Usually what is meaningful and worthwhile is hard. Also we get better at hard things when we practice doing them.

There is a concept in racing when taking a corner to "keep your eyes off the wall", and instead look where you want the car to go.

Imo the most scary part of the problems we face isn't what you or GP are talking about, it's everyone else's reactions to them. The staring at the wall while screaming or giving up, and refusing to look where you want to go.

It's harder to satisfy our wants if we cant articulate them.

[danaris]

Well, sure—and I am, in general, a very positive person.

But there's a huge difference between (a) "given that this thing exists that seems very bad, can you imagine a way to a better future?" and (b) "can you imagine ways that this thing that seems very bad could actually be very good?"

The ways to a better future are in spite of these developments, not because of them, and I don't think it's at all helpful to act like that's not the case or be all disappointed (and, frankly, a bit condescending) at people who refuse to play along with attempts to do so.

And it's possible that (a) above is what you meant, but your wording very much sounded like (b).

[Eisenstein]

Treating people like children is patronizing and I implore you to stop doing it.

[FloorEgg]

You’re right, and I’m sorry.

The way I phrased that was patronizing. It wasn't my intention, but I see now how it comes across.

It seems to me like the attention economy's bias towards threatening novel news is pushing everyone into a negative, cynical, feedback loop, and I am trying clumsily to resist that. There are many real problems and many things seem to be going in the wrong direction, but I don't see how we all get ourselves out of this mess if we can't start talking about what the other side (of the despair) looks like.

I suspect that another mistake I made was the timing/context. For some reason, in the moment, I thought redirecting the cynicism at it's source (a Sora thread) was a good idea. It probably wasn't. I guess there is a time and place to try and inspire hope, and this wasn't it. And judging you for not engaging in it deserves a facepalm in hindsight.

Please accept my apology, and if you think my stance itself is misguided (not just my tone and timing), I would like to understand why.

[Eisenstein]

I don't think you need to apologize, but I will graciously accept it.

I feel your response was misguided because by framing it as my responsibility to see a future with some benefit and casting the refusal to do so under the current terms as a failure of character, you are doing the equivalent of saying to an bottom rung MLM seller that they just aren't trying hard enough.

If the system is skewed in such as way as to prevent the person from being able to gain in it, then making it their fault for not seeing a way through that makes you appear manipulative and tends to make your motives suspect.

[code4life]

> Finally, people don't really care about the truth.

What is truth? Pontius Pilate

[godelski]

Not to mention that the president posts AI slop frequently[0]. He even posted, and took down, a video promising people a "med bay". A fictional device that just cures everything.

[0] Trump as "King Trump" flying a jet that dumps shit onto protesters https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/1153982516232...

[1] https://www.snopes.com/news/2025/09/30/medbed-trump-ai-video...