[soramimo]

Well if you care about democracy, they are the only power that can arguably undermine it, not just at home, but worldwide (tiktok, fueling division, funding antidemocratic parties like Germany's AfD).

Further, look into their support of Russia in their war of conquest against Ukraine, the treatment of their neighbors like the Philippines and look into what their fishing fleet is up to worldwide.

[tock]

> if you care about democracy

I do

> they are the only power that can arguably undermine it

Stares at current administration

> tiktok

Meta. Myanmar. Report: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/09/myanmar-faceb...

> fueling division

Again stares at current administration

> funding antidemocratic parties like Germany's AfD

Elon. Vance. Report: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/14/us/politics/vance-far-rig...

> support of Russia in their war of conquest against Ukraine

Agree. Looks over at Palestine.

> the treatment of their neighbors like the Philippines

Venezuela. Today.

[soramimo]

To be clear, I'm not arguing in favor of the current administration. In fact, I would argue that they have a similar "might makes right" mindset to the CCP and should be opposed on the same grounds.

If anything, foreign adversaries like China or Russia welcome / help to power parties like the current administration so democracies self destruct.

[tock]

And I'm saying this has nothing to do with moral goods like democracy. The US has toppled plenty of democracies and killed millions of innocent people for its own benefit. "Might makes right" is what we always practiced. The current administration just doesn't care to hide it.

This has everything to do with maintaining economic and military superiority. That's the reason why people consider China a "adversary" not morality. If you don't understand this you won't understand why such a huge percentage of the world's population is wary of the USA just like they are wary of China.

[soramimo]

I see where you're coming from, but I disagree.

The US is far from perfect, but - so far, TBD where we go from here - has had IMHO a net positive influence on keeping democracy around (specifically, I'm thinking of Germany after WW2, Western Europe during the Cold War, Japan and with detours South Korea).

Perhaps you'll point out that the US did this out of pure self-interest and these countries are just vassal states to the US. However, a useful comparison in this context is comparing Western Germany (US) to Eastern Germany (Russia), South Korea (US) to North Korea (China) or, say, Poland (US/EU) to Belarus (Russia) to assess which sphere of influence (and its implications on national self-determination) is preferable.

Going back to democracy, in my view is not the "default state" of human society (the default is probably mob rule like we have in Russia).

> That's the reason why people consider China a "adversary" not morality.

I personally view Russia and China as adversaries because they are a serious threat to democracy worldwide (that I think we agree on?), which I believe is the very thing we're discussing.

So in summary, there are very good reasons to be critical of China (CCP) independent of the current US administrations actions and historical baggage of the US.

[tock]

Your examples of the US doing good for democracy is correct. My examples of the US doing bad and dismantling democracy for its own benefit is also correct. The US has been fantastic for its own people and its allies. Not so for others. Please note that 85% of the world population lies outside.

But all your examples are vs Russia. I will be happy if Russia is dismantled. Both the Soviet Union and Russia has been terrible for its people. China has been absolutely fantastic for its people. They went from absolute poverty to challenging the greatest empire the world has ever seen in just a few decades. I doubt the Chinese people hate their regime.

> to assess which sphere of influence (and its implications on national self-determination) is preferable

Iran, Guatemala, Brazil, etc. All had democratic govt's overthrown by the US.

> I personally view Russia and China as adversaries because they are a serious threat to democracy worldwide (that I think we agree on?), which I believe is the very thing we're discussing.

I personally view Russia, USA and China as serious threats to democracy. Because all three have toppled democratic countries for its benefit. And no I don't think they do it because they hate democracy. They do it because it helps their superiority. The victims just happened to be democratic sometimes.

> So in summary, there are very good reasons to be critical of China (CCP) independent of the current US administrations actions and historical baggage of the US.

And there are very good reasons to be critical of the USA independent of the current Chinese administrations actions and historical baggage of China.

My whole point is that administrations do things for economic and military superiority. Things like morality are just used by administrations to justify actions to their populace. I am sure you _personally_ dislike China for purely moral reasons. Most people are good who think in terms of morality. That is exactly why framing a rival as "evil" works so well. It's about power. If the world works on the basis of justice then the EU should have sanctioned the US for the Iraq debacle and now Palestine.

Can you maybe take a few minutes and write down all the good+bad things the US has done since say WW2 vs China? You'll understand why a neutral third party is wary of both.

[soramimo]

> You'll understand why a neutral third party is wary of both.

Oh I can understand this, yet my conclusion stands that China (CCP) is and remains a threat to democracy woldwide (which is my original point).

You are not disputing this, correct? (if anything, you're drawing an equivalence to the US, which I disagree with, but doesn't refute the conclusion on the original point)?

[heidarb]

I’ll just leave this here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_electoral_inte... It’s a complex issue. It’s understandable people want democracy but it’s also understandable that it can be seen as a security risk. The brexit referendum in the UK is probably the best modern example of this.