[zkmon]

>> You make them accountable so that they have the ability to produce an account of what, how, and why happened at a given time.

The very first line in the Wikipeda article on Accountability states that "accountability is equated with answerability, culpability, liability".

Are you saying a person who is accountable may not be held responsible for the outcomes?

[phoe-krk]

> Are you saying a person who is accountable may not be held responsible for the outcomes?

No, please re-read what I said. I said that it's not about finding a scapegoat to fire, but about understanding what, where, and why happened. If you don't have an account of a problem, then you don't know where the problem is located; even if it should be solved by firing someone, then you don't have the tools to figure out who and why needs to be fired.

[firesteelrain]

The person you are replying to describes something akin to retrospective but even in Agile we still have people who need to be accountable and that includes the engineers too.

[DrewADesign]

Assuming you’re earnestly not seeing how this works rather than seeking an argument:

I work in an industry where accountability is the norm. Individual people perform well-known, but difficult-to-execute steps of various processes; strict metrics define success and failure; close calls are not ideal; and the distance between success and failure is usually not revealed without precisely calibrated equipment. The ways to measure the outcomes are legally codified. Everything can be checked and double-checked, and people can, and often do, check those checks. Even then, sometimes the person that determined the metrics got them wrong. Sometimes it was measured wrong. Sometimes the person that said it was wrong turns out to be wrong. My primary professional function is to determine adherence to those standards. Potentially thousands of lives are at stake if we get the wrong thing wrong enough.

With a sane commit history and code reviews, this is a lot easier in software than it is in most realms. It’s definitely easier than mine.

Accountability isn’t just about failure— it’s about owning outcomes and giving an account of what you did to contribute to that outcome, good or bad.

> answerability, culpability, liability

You left off the end of the sentence.

> equated with answerability, culpability, liability, and the expectation of account-giving.

Account-giving is the key, here.

Since we’re focusing on problems: mistakes have different causes: being careless, having outdated knowledge, having the wrong requirements, physical or mental problems, equipment malfunctioning, bad processes… to identify the root problem, you need an account of what happened. To get that, you need to identify the person or people involved, and figure out what went wrong. That’s the only way you’re going to mature enough organizationally to have any semblance of quality. As the saying goes: if everybody’s responsible for something, then nobody’s responsible for it. The distinction is accountability.

So you don’t need to fire someone to hold them accountable— even being ‘in trouble’ every time someone does something wrong is counterproductive if it makes people hide or shirk responsibility for their mistakes. If someone fucks up badly or frequently enough, then maybe they are in trouble, and maybe they do get fired? But there’s a whole hell of a lot accountability that happens before that.

People make mistakes, and any organization that does not tolerate mistakes is run by people without the emotional maturity required to properly run an organization. The same is true of people unwilling to identify those mistakes and figure out either how they can be avoided in the future, or if they can’t be reliably avoided, mitigate their effects. Some of the leadership’s primary responsibilities involve defining the desired outcome, measuring the difference between it and the actual outcome, determining if/how it matters, and figuring out why it’s different. Those that refuse to address, or even acknowledge problems (and again, it doesn’t have to be punitive,) are masking their own laziness or incompetence.