[IlikeKitties]

> There is also a real potential for abusing TPMs or cryptographic co-processors to enforce remote attestation.

People here REALLY need to start understanding this issue. Remote Attestation is the kind of tech that if abused will end free computing over night.

[wkat4242]

And it's already happening in the form of Google play integrity API. Many apps already require it. It's just a matter of time before they push similar tech to the desktop. And on mobile it hurts more because many banks now require a mobile app for 2FA.

Personally I think any form of attestation is evil.

[butlike]

I agree. Now: "Papers, please."

[breakingcups]

There's a reason Microsoft is aggressively deprecating "older" CPU's that work perfectly fine. Heck, I have one laptop with Windows 11 that worked great, but won't update from 22h2 to 24h2 because CPU support was dropped between versions, leaving me with only the glib suggestion from the Windows Update UI to "Buy a new device".

Ironically, installing Windows 10 and activating ESU would lead to longer hardware life.

Of course, I didn't. Instead, I installed Linux on that laptop too. My partner had no issues switching.

[WorldMaker]

TPM wasn't the only reason older CPUs were dropped. The biggest reasons where the line in the sand Microsoft chose would not be supported in Windows 11 was Spectre/Meltdown [0] mitigation. Windows 10 added a bunch of intentional slowdowns to mitigate that disaster and people incorrectly blamed Windows 10 for being slow and not the CPUs and their CVEs. Windows 11 seems to have wanted a clean slate without needing to have any of those slowdown mitigations in the codebase and eliminate some classes of "Windows 11 is slow on my machine" complaints.

I'm not sure Microsoft took the best approach. I might have opted into a "Windows 11 Slow CPU" SKU if it was marketed right. That might have been a little kinder than "all these CPUs with this awful series of bugs are trash, even though we have had a successful workaround".

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectre_(security_vulnerabilit...

[p_ing]

Yes, Microsoft is blocking CPUs which lack the ability for Virtualization Based Security. Given OS security is important to Microsoft (surprise, I know), enforcing VBS is a priority.

[everdev]

Security for Microsoft...

[rightbyte]

My understanding is that Spectre etc. only is a problem if the user choses to run hostile code on their computer.

[WorldMaker]

I think "chooses to" is doing a lot of work there in your understanding. Spectre exploits were found in the wild even in JS code submitted to ad networks. I suppose a user could choose to uBlock all ad JS and never visit webpages they don't trust. Those are choices, sort of.

But also that's a bit victim blaming isn't it? Do you want to explain to your grandfather or partner or child "Oh sorry, you had a password stolen because you chose to visit Google.com on a day where Google let an ad buyer attach Spectre exploit malware"? (Google could also chose to not let ads attach JS at all, but that's a very different problem.)

Computers have millions of places they get code from to run. Is "your CPU has a data leaking bug in it" the user's problem or the OS's problem? When there's a mitigation the OS can manage? When security-in-depth is an option?

I installed Bazzite on my own old Desktop not supported by Windows 11. One of the first things the Linux kernel spits out on boot if I have the boot console up is about running with Spectre mitigations. The Linux kernel also thinks it is important to mitigate (as Windows 10 did, but Windows 11 doesn't include and so doesn't support this old Desktop).

[rightbyte]

Sure I am might have been a wee bit too bitter writing that.

The point I want to make is that allowing remote code execution is such a big attack surface that it makes all the other security measures look silly, which indicates that signed execution contexts in them self is an attack on privacy and control etc.

If there was any actual security concerns there could be a push for server side rendering or something.

[yusaydat]

Windows 11 has full spectre/meltdown mitigations by default. That Wikipedia article doesn't mention Windows 11 at all.

[dataflow]

> People here REALLY need to start understanding this issue.

The idea that understanding is the problem feels like a fallacy. People need to upgrade hardware, and when all chips contain such functionality, consumers won't have a choice of alternatives. What you want is legislation (or a dominant competitor lacking such features, which doesn't exist).

[account42]

Legislation doesn't help unless its the right legislation.

After all, legislation is what is forbidding you from producing a competing x86 processor with the changes you want.

[heavyset_go]

Remote attestation is already here with Play Protect/Integrity on Android, and Microsoft's Pluton co-processor enables the same thing

[nerdsniper]

See also:

- Private Access Token [0]

- Web Environment Integrity [1]

among other proposals.

0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31751203

1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36785516

[breakingcups]

Microsoft had a lot of practice with this with the recent Xbox hardware & software.

[benterix]

> over night.

No, I think they bend over backwards not to do it overnight because of the outcry but try to make all required changes and enforcements gradually over the years so in the end you will have no choice but there will not be any sudden change that would spark protests.

[weikju]

s/if/when/