[scheeseman486]

On the face of it they're just security features, and I don't deny they are, but the industry as a whole are using those features to implement device verification systems that are being used to lock down their platforms and centralize control over their software ecosystems.

Being able to install another OS isn't much good if critical applications and websites refuse to run on it.

[gruez]

>Being able to install another OS isn't much good if critical applications and websites refuse to run on it.

The battle has already been lost on this. Just look at all the companies that are app-only and don't offer a web version.

[wkat4242]

That the battle is lost doesn't mean we should stop fighting. Even the war being lost isn't a reason to. The equivalent in the real world is resistance.

[scheeseman486]

I wouldn't say it's lost, but the trendlines aren't good.

[cam_l]

I honestly have only come across one company that is app only. That was because I was with them when they changed over, otherwise I would never have signed up.

This was my local gym which sacked their front desk staff and moved to app access only, and with an app infested with trackers at that. Needless to say I don't go to that gym anymore.

[gruez]

It's popular with fintechs, especially new ones. Robinhood for instance was app-only for a few years before they got their web version. Revolut theoretically has a web version but it has far less features than the mobile app. Restaurant "apps" (for ordering and offers) are often app-only as well.

[chromehearts]

Honest question: What does TPM have to do with this? I mean, Revolut developers don't need to check for TPM or similar to serve other functionalities just because you're on browser or mobile app. Am I getting something wrong?

[gruez]

There might not be "TPMs" exactly on smartphones, but both Android and iOS have device attestation APIs that does the same thing that TPMs do, ie. cryptographically prove to a remote party that you're running some particular version of software.

https://developer.android.com/google/play/integrity

https://developer.apple.com/documentation/devicecheck

>I mean, Revolut developers don't need to check for TPM or similar to serve other functionalities just because you're on browser or mobile app.

Some features are simply not available in the web version. You can try running the app in an emulator to get past that limitation, but an emulator won't be able to spoof device attestations, so if they bother checking for it you're screwed.

[rixed]

Want another exemple as fresh as yesterday?

I'm on a move, had to pay some transport company to move some stuff for me, pick-up date tomorrow. Paid online, website asked for a confirmation from my bank's app (N26), fair enough. Opened the app, just to be greated with "Please Update. The latest app version includes new features, enhancements and stability improvements" with the only choice: "Update now".

Being confronted with an app designed to refuse to work was irritating enough (for context, I'm from a generation were we used to own our devices), but I clicked on "Update" anyway, just to be told by apple store that there was no update for my iPhone 7.

Ok, the writting was on the wall. You know, I own one iphone and 2 android phones already, all of them several years old but in pristine condition. That's how I am, I care for things. I'm not going to buy yet another one, if only because I hate waste and fear mismanagement of natural resources. That's how I am, I care for things.

Now you are mandating me to add more e-waste? There is no way I'm going to do that, so I decided to connect to N26's wensite, but guess what? You need the app to login. Well, if you insist you can also login with a short message, which I did, just to check that there was no way to confirm a paiement on the website.

But you can contact "support", so I tried that. To their credit, the robot bouncer was quick to admit incompetence and to connect me with a friendly fellow human, who was unfortunately only allowed to lecture me about why those "new features and enhancements" were essential to my account's security, while being unable to tell me exaclty what they were or what was the problem with the current version, and suggested I login from someone else's phone instead.

Security? Whose security?

To anyone working in tech, let me remind you what an actual threat model is.

My actual threat model in the actual world is that your company might stole my money, or prevent me from access it which amount to the same thing. Data points: Despite all the stories on the news about mischievous hackerz from russia and china, I've been stolen money only twice in my life, not a lot of but at the time I needed it, and twice by banks.

My threat model is that the electronic gadget that I bought and carry with me all the time stops obeying me and starts obeying some adversarial company. And that, in perfect novlang mastery, you want me to call this a "trusted device".

My threat model is that our civilization might drown in e-waste.

Want another exemple of app only service? Wait for a days or two, as I'm confident I will face the same issue soon.

[encom]

Yes, your bank is shit, but this is also Apple's fault to a large degree.

There is absolutely no reason to release a new major version of your OS every year, and there is no reason to arbitrarily drop support for older devices (except extremely contrived ones, that I'm sure will be posted below). I made the mistake of acquiring an Ipad once. Its only job was playing YouTube videos in bed (yes I know), until Apple and Google in unison decided that it should be thrown into a landfill, because its OS was unsupported and the YouTube app, for no reason at all, would no longer work. Was the device suddenly unable to decode H.264 video or playing audio? Nope. But please just throw it in the trash and buy a new one - what are you, poor?!

[rixed]

> this is also Apple's fault to a large degree

I don't know, I haven't checked extensively but I believe supporting iphone7 is still one checkbox away in xcode (xcode 26 release notes state that it "supports on-device debugging in iOS 15 and later", which is what is installed on my iphone).

I could imagine how some team at N26 though that "supporting" more devices was too much on their plate, which I would sympathise with, but the most likely scenario to me is that some technically inept "decision maker" decided to ban older phones in a security gesture to give the impression that he is adding value.

Note: I also own a venerable ipad air2 (2009) that I bought second hand long ago to serve as a midi controller. Still a very nice, well build machine. It's not allowed to connect to wifi or it would figure out what year it is. I call it "hibernatus" (reference to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hibernatus) :)

[cam_l]

Beautifully said!

I must just have a sixth sense to avoid those kinds of services. And I also have a zero tolerance policy. For example, if a restaurant says I have to order on my phone, I stand up and go to leave. I am old enough now they probably just assume I am technologically illiterate.

[Woodi]

Counter example, from the future :)

Year 2034, you have a nice vintage, lightly used electric car. Battery still charges and whole box drives. Do you need to buy new car or gov need to prohibit you using it or enforce to scrap it ? Most likely yes - battery is about to explode, possibly on crowded crossroad...

Real problems sometimes demands 0 or 1 action.

Just "phone app from everyone" etc is monopolies inflicted harm on society.

[kragen]

Your story is appalling, and I agree that this is a major problem.

However, drowning in e-waste from smartphones is many orders of magnitude from being an issue, as trivial calculations easily show. Mentioning it makes your argument rhetorically much weaker. The iPhone 16 is 147.6mm × 71.6mm × 7.8mm (8.2 × 10⁻⁵ m³) and weighs 170g, according to https://www.dimensions.com/element/apple-iphone-16-18th-gen. The population of France is 68.6 million people. One iPhone per person each year for the next century would be 6.86 billion iPhones in France, assuming the population remained constant. This would weigh 1.2 million tonnes and fit in a sphere 51 meters in diameter. If stacked 6 meters deep it would cover 9.4 hectares, a circle 340 meters in diameter. France contains 63 million hectares. The hypothetical pile of iPhones would cover about a third of the area of the Gravelines Nuclear Power Station near Calais.

Far from drowning in e-waste from smartphones, if you dump it in a landfill, it will be extremely hard even to find the e-waste without a map.

Even if you didn't have a countryside to bury e-waste in, this should be obvious even on the household scale. Suppose you and your four children each get a new iPhone every year, and instead of throwing them away, you put them in a box in the attic. How big is the box? It's a 35 cm cube after 100 years. It would weigh 85 kg, though, so you'd want to use several smaller boxes. But there is no risk of drowning.

[rixed]

"Drowning in e-waste" was a metaphor for "slowly destroying the conditions for civilisation with the violent obsession for more fossil fuel and more minerals to extract".

[kragen]

That's a bad metaphor, because those problems don't have anything significant in common with the e-waste problem, but there is no particular danger of smartphones being a major contributor to them, either. According to https://www.apple.com/nz/environment/pdf/products/iphone/iPh... the emissions per iPhone 16 are 56 kg of CO₂ equivalent, 18% of which is the expected energy consumption during the life of the product. France emits 4.14 tonnes of CO₂ per person per year, so buying an extra iPhone per year would increase your total yearly CO₂ (equivalent) emissions by about 1%. Similarly, the quantity of minerals in a smartphone is insignificant (170 grams! largely recycled!) compared with the quantity of minerals in, for example, a sidewalk (many tonnes).

Some of those minerals, like the gold in the bond wires, are pretty heavily refined, requiring the excavation of some much larger amount of gangue and leaving most of it as tailings. But the total quantities of those minerals in the device are very small indeed. Instead, worry about things like electric vehicles and CO₂ emissions from making concrete.

What you are doing by attempting to reduce fossil fuel and other mineral usage by buying smartphones less frequently is analogous to attempting to pay the rent on a Paris apartment by looking for lost coins in the subway station, or attempting to take a running leap across the English Channel. You are doomed by your complete lack of understanding of the orders of magnitude involved.

[dahrkael]

its even worse when you discover the app itself is just a webview