[1718627440]

Preventing misuse does not necessarily mean everyone should do it, so I fail to accept your logic.

Anyways I didn't want to discuss that, my claim was that you either think of something as victimless or you think it is a crime. Your data point seams to only fit this claim. To disprove it you would need to find something you consider victimless, but still think it should be a crime.

[immibis]

Why is misuse of drugs bad? And don't say "because it's misuse" - that would be circular.

I agree that people who think drugs, anal sex, or whatever should be a crime, can also rationalize that someone is the victim. They're wrong, of course, but they still think it.

When you said:

> They do affect the future population count and this will affect the pension of everyone. They also will result in persons not being born. You can say that this is way less of importance then the right to do whatever you want, but it is not without effect to others.

It appeared that you were not just stating what those crazy people who think anal sex should be a crime think, but what you thought. That's why you got replies arguing against the idea that anal sex should be a crime. You could have made it clear if you were just stating the views that crazy people have.

[1718627440]

> And don't say "because it's misuse" - that would be circular.

Well that's the meaning of misuse, if it weren't bad it wouldn't be misuse. You can only ask whether something is misuse or how bad it is, asking whether misuse is bad is questioning a tautology.

> Why is misuse of drugs bad?

Actually I was replying to this:

> By your logic, then, if sodomy and homosexuality were illegal, then adults of child bearing age would be legally required to have sex.

So I was talking about misuse of sexuality.

> I agree that people who think drugs, anal sex, or whatever should be a crime, can also rationalize that someone is the victim.

Yes that what I wanted to point out. I was merely enumerating examples from the Wikipedia article.

> but what you thought.

I do think homosexuality is bad and unnatural. (No don't tell me it occurs in animals, any behaviour occurs in animals.) I don't think it should be a crime, so I don't think my opinion affects other people.

------

If we were to talk about my opinion about drugs in general, I think as to them being bad, they are kind of at the same level as money. You shouldn't become attached to them. They are more dangerous the more likely you become attached to them.

For any specific drug, I find the smell of cannabis to smell dangerous and poisonous in a weird and unexplainable way. I would like it, if this would go away, so I am in favor of banning it again. I also heard of studies indicating a rise in schizophrenia especially among young people (<30) and I don't wish that to anybody, just because someone tries to make money. I also don't think it's smart to do that, if you already have a lack of young people. But I lack the knowledge to check this for soundness.

I wouldn't mind smoking to go away from public spaces, I hate when I'm forced to inhale this. But I can't judge if it is justified.

I think alcohol is grand-fathered in. I also think there are very different kind of alcoholic beverages and also very different kind of usages. There are cultures that regularly drink liquor before eating heavy food, because it has a positive impact on the digestive system, but this is only about a few milliliters, so it is more like medicine. There is also a bit of alcohol in every apple. I think alcoholic beverages are too fundamentally incorporated in our culture, so I would find it sad to see it go away. I wouldn't mind having additional restrictions on harder stuff.

I don't think coffee causes any larger issues. I also think we don't need to discuss restricting access to sugar. Medical appliance of drugs is very restricted and constantly reevaluated.

I wish that large amounts of money would be more regulated, but I don't think we should touch the concept of private ownership. Also fashion or cars are the drugs of many, and now there is a large supply of non-physical drugs, but I don't know any non-restrictive policy that I want to support there.

I don't have experienced any other/harder drug and I prefer it to stay that way.

[timschmidt]

>> And don't say "because it's misuse" - that would be circular.

> Well that's the meaning of misuse

> I do think homosexuality is bad and unnatural. (No don't tell me it occurs in animals, any behaviour occurs in animals.)

Well, friend, that's the meaning of natural. "Found in nature"

Playing word games with one will get you called out in the same way on the other, regardless of your cognitive dissonance on the subject.

[1718627440]

I do not now the meaning of something where badness != misuse.

> Well, friend, that's the meaning of natural. "Found in nature"

That's one meaning of nature. Other meanings are the nature of X, as in what is an intrinsic motivation or purpose, and natural law, but I guess you don't recognize that as valid concept.

Would you agree to "Killing others is natural"? You wouldn't expect "natural" to have the first meaning there either.

A lot of disagreements boil down to a different usage of a word, so "word games" are not fruitless in a discussion.

If it is important, then I would define misuse of a drug by motivation (high or low) and by application (whether the dose fits the motivation). misuse = low || dose != motivation; And I would say that this is bad, because low motivation doesn't satisfy the harm any drugs causes and a wrong does doesn't achieve the intended outcome.

[immibis]

None of this has any logical consistency, sorry. You weren't able to provide a rational argument for why using drugs is bad - only a circular one (it's bad because it's misuse; it's misuse because it's bad). I've heard this "nature of" and "natural law" line of argument before and it's very similar: strict heterosexuality is the nature of things because you said so despite all actual evidence to the contrary. There's no science experiment you can do to prove that, and many you can do to prove it wrong, but natural law proponents still insist it's true because they said so. "Natural law" / "nature of" is a meaningless word game.

Killing others is natural. That's a factual statement.

"I would define misuse of a drug by motivation (high or low) and by application (whether the dose fits the motivation)" is indecipherable, and therefore devoid of semantic content. It seems the war on drugs has created a problem of nobody knowing the slightest thing about drugs.

[1718627440]

> None of this has any logical consistency, sorry.

Can you please counter any concrete logical step, instead of just dismissing it because you don't like it?

> You weren't able to provide a rational argument for why using drugs is bad - only a circular one

I stated that I consider misuse and badness to be that same thing, so no that was obviously not my argument. I told you what I consider to be the questions I would decide misuse on. Feel free to provide another definition.

> I've heard this "nature of" and "natural law" line of argument before and it's very similar

I don't expect you to agree with the philosophy of the scholastics, I only wanted to clarify my view.

> strict heterosexuality is the nature of things because you said

I think you again mistook "nature of a thing" to have a the meaning of everything the thing does do in nature. As such that would be an everything statement.

> "Natural law" / "nature of" is a meaningless word game.

No it's not. I don't accept you as the arbiter of philosophy, that just declares philosophy concepts to don't exist.

> There's no science experiment you can do to prove that, and many you can do to prove it wrong

The experiment is, do solely policy X in isolation with an isolated population. Do you like the outcome or not?

> [my definition] is indecipherable, and therefore devoid of semantic content.

Thanks. Can you please tell, what you don't understand, instead of declaring it to not have a semantic meaning?

> has created a problem of nobody knowing the slightest thing about drugs.

Could you please educate us on your mysterious knowledge about the nature of drugs? In case you somehow took that to be the case, I did not claim, that I consider any use of a drug to be misuse. I think I gave some examples in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45598978 .

[timschmidt]

> I do not now the meaning of something where badness != misuse.

Seems to me that you've demonstrated clearly through the course of the discussion that individual definitions of "badness" differ substantially enough for there to be significant disagreement.

> A lot of disagreements boil down to a different usage of a word

Here you are making the same case yourself.

> Would you agree to "Killing others is natural"?

Happens all the time in nature, including the last time you ate a hamburger or some beans or bread. Happens also in self-defense and territorial disputes.

We also observe predators and prey co-existing peacefully in nature at times. I can see the rhetorical corner you're attempting to back the discussion into, and it's a weak position devoid of nuance or understanding. Further, it's one which can only be argued by someone who's connection to their food ends at the grocery store. Wild that some folks have forgotten what they are giving thanks for at mealtime.

You may not consider animals or plants to be "others", but then you've only given me additional reason to discount your moral judgement as incomplete, narcissistic, and even further disconnected from the nature you invoke as justification.

P.S. drug use is also observed in nature: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recreational_drug_use_in_anima...

[1718627440]

> Seems to me that you've demonstrated clearly through the course of the discussion that individual definitions of "badness" differ substantially enough for there to be significant disagreement.

The claim I stated that that started this thread was, that different definitions of badness are accompanied by different but respective definitions of misuse.

> Here you are making the same case yourself.

Yes? I used a word having some meaning in mind, you interpreted it with a different meaning, which obviously doesn't work. You pointed that out, so I pointed out, that that was not the meaning of the word I was using it for.

> I can see the rhetorical corner you're attempting to back the discussion into, and it's a weak position devoid of nuance or understanding.

I think you are over-interpreting me, answering to something I haven't said.

> P.S. drug use is also observed in nature: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recreational_drug_use_in_anima...

That's what I was answering to, with "Killing others is natural". This is a factual true statement, but you wouldn't accept this as a moral argument in a court. Because animals (including humans) can do and do something, does not mean we want to cater to that as a society. In fact restricting things, that might not even be bad in isolation, is what separates civilization from the undomesticated.