[tpoacher]

Not necessarily an identical thought to OP, but, anecdotally (n=1), my experience teaching the exact same course on Advanced Java Programming for the last 4 years has been that the students seem to be getting more and more cynical, and seem to think of programming as an art or as a noteworthy endeavour in itself less and less. Very few people have actually vocalised the "why do I even need to learn this if I can write a prompt" sentiment out loud, but it has been voiced, and even from those who don't say it there's a very definite 'vibe' that is all but screaming it.

Whereas the vibe in the lecture theatre 4 years ago was far more nerdy and enthusiastic. It makes me feel very sorry for this new generation that they will never get to enjoy the same feeling of satisfaction from solving a hard problem with code you thought and wrote from scratch.

Ironically, I've had to incorporate some AI stuff in my course as a result of needing to remain "current", which almost feels like it validates that cynical sentiment that this soulless way is the way to be doing things now.

[raw_anon_1111]

I have no idea where this romanticism of software development comes from. I’ve been in the field professionally for 30 years across 10 jobs - everything from startups, to boring old enterprise companies, to small to midsize “lifestyle companies” and BigTech. Most people see the job as a vocation to make money and not a passion.

Scott Hanselman talked about “Dark Matter Developers” in 2012.

https://www.hanselman.com/blog/dark-matter-developers-the-un...

[baq]

the art is in academics and in the hobby space, it was a cool feeling of accomplishment when you finally got something working. LLMs are very helpful here if you use them right - e.g. as a tutor if starting out.

in the business, it was always best to be value and result oriented, which very often has nothing to do with art and composed thought - shipping something that kinda works is priority 1. LLMs can significantly accelerate the already breakneck pace, but you need expertise to keep them in check, and this is where the gap between students and senior swes lies - and it's only getting bigger with every model release.

[tpoacher]

I would disagree that the art is in the "academics and hobby space", though I suppose I may be using a different definition for 'art' here.

I read something some time a go and noted it down because I liked the concept:

> The japanese have two words for quality

> The first is "Atarimae hinshitsu", which can be roughly translated as "taken-for-granted quality." What do the Japanese take for granted when it comes to quality? They take for granted that things should work as they are supposed to, and they even see an elegance to things working properly -- whether it's cars, subway schedules, traditional flower arranging, or the famous tea ceremony.

> The second is "Miryoku teki hinshitsu", which means "bewitching" or "enchanting quality." This kind of quality appeals not to customer expectations and reliability (that things should do what they're supposed to), but rather to a person's aesthetic sense of beauty and elegance.

> Great products have both.

There's also the whole "Kaizen vs Cha bu duo" philosophy.

I think it was the above sentiments I was echoing, though I suppose more in a learning context.

[andy99]

I taught intro to programming ~15-20 years ago. Back then everyone just copied each other’s assignments. Plus ça change

[tpoacher]

Yes, but, even then I feel the point was more "I need to pass to get a job, this currently feels beyond my skills/energy/time, and morals are secondary".

The important shift here is that there's increasingly a more "what pointless checkbox exercises these are" vibe to it, as if cognitive offloading of learning / skill acquisition is now secondary due to LLMs, or even actively a productivity-culture-driven shameful waste of time, which I think is seriously misguided.

It feels as if the morality argument has turned on its head; the students seem to almost feel expected to cheat and work around the "luddites" as the perceived moral thing to do. By the time they realise the value of the skills they should have acquired it will be too late.

[nxor]

Has the school changed?

And can we assume that because AI has made it easy to solve some hard problems, other hard problems won't arise?

Not that I don't agree

And hasn't the internet generally added to this attitude?

And if it makes you feel any better, as someone around that age, this environment seems to have also led some of us to go out of our way to not outsource all our thinking

[abnercoimbre]

The OP said coding now feels like:

> import solution from chatgpt

Which reminded me of all the students in classes (and online forums) mocking non-nerds who wanted easy answers to programming problems. It would seem the non-nerds are getting their way now.