[anticodon]

But why? Although I have way more experience with Django ORM, I find that SQLAlchemy is closer to SQL and I have to think less how to express complex queries. With Django ORM changing a few characters can change resulting query from LEFT JOIN to INNER JOIN, for example. I find it more difficult to write complex queries in Django ORM.

[izacus]

Being closer to SQL in my projects meant that it had more footguns than C++ and developers had to know a lot about DB details to not break things.

[bbkane]

I don't think it's unreasonable that devs should have to learn about database details to correctly use a database.

Could you list some specific examples where things broke because of SQLAlchemy's design?

[izacus]

Managing connections, connection looking and transactions was something that was always an issue with SQLalchemy for us. Migrations were significantly more terrible as well.

[lelanthran]

The only footgun is pretending that using an ORM means not having to learn SQL.

[codr7]

Exactly!

I like my ORMs based on SQL concepts, not OOP concepts.

So you do have to know SQL, but you get more convenient ways of generating it.

https://github.com/codr7/tyred

[izacus]

That's not what I said though.

[sgarland]

Wait until you find out that the RDBMS optimizer may also sometimes convert your outer joins to inner joins.

I dislike all ORMs, but I especially dislike SQLAlchemy for its hideously bad docs.