[gjsman-1000]

I think another part of this, is that Tech is perhaps the only industry that hasn't quite gotten over itself yet.

Writing code is artistic the same way plumbing is artistic.

Writing code is artistic the same way home wiring is artistic.

Writing code is artistic the same way HVAC is artistic.

Which is to say, yes, there is satisfaction to be had, but companies don't care as long as it gets the job done without too many long-term problems, and never will care beyond that. What we call tech debt, an electrician calls aluminum wiring. What we call tech debt, a plumber calls lead solder joints. And I strongly suspect that one day, when the dust settles on how to do things correctly (just like it did for electricity, plumbing, flying, haircutting, and every other trade eventually), we will become a licensed field. Every industry has had that wild experimentation phase in the beginning, and has had that phase end.

[veqz]

Perhaps. But put another way:

Writing code is artistic the same way writing text is.

Whether that is a function call, an ad, a screen script, a newspaper article, or a chapter in a paperback the writer has to know what one wants to communicate, who the audience/users will be, the flow of the text, and how understandable it will be.

Most professionally engaged writers get paid for their output, but many more simply write because they want to, and it gives them pleasure. While I'm sure the jobs can be both monetarily and intellectually rewarding, I have yet to see people who do plumbing or electrical work for fun?

[eikenberry]

> Writing code is artistic the same way home wiring is artistic.

Instead of home wiring, consider network wiring. We've all seen the examples of datacenter network wiring, with 'the good' being neat, labeled and easy to work with and 'the bad' being total chaos of wires, tangled, no labels, impossible to work with.

IE. The people using the datacenter don't care as long as the packets flow. But the others working on the network cabling care about it A LOT. The artistry of it is for the other engineers, only indirectly for the customers.

[bigfishrunning]

> companies don't care as long as it gets the job done without too many long-term problems

Companies don't care as long as it gets the job done without too many VERY SHORT TERM problems. Long term problems are for next quarter, no reason to worry about them.

[gjsman-1000]

And they somewhat have a point. What's the point of code quality, if it delays your startup 6 months, and the startup goes under? What's the point of code quality, if it will be replaced with the newest design or architecture change in 6 months? What's the point of planning for 5 years if a pandemic or supply chain shock could muck it up? What's the point of enforcing beautiful JQuery code... in 2012?

The problem isn't that companies make these tradeoffs. It's that we pretend we're not in the same boat as every other trade that deals with 'good enough' solutions under real-world constraints. We're not artists, we're tradesmen in 1920 arguing about the best home wiring practices. Imagine what it would be like if they were getting artistic about their beautiful tube-and-knob installations and the best way to color-code a fusebox; that's us.

[losteric]

What in the bad rhetoric is this? The trades did and still do have standards.

Hell there was a whole TikTok cycle where people learned there is a right and wrong way to lay tile/grout. One way looks fine until it breaks, the other lasts lifetimes.

It’s the exact same trend as in software: shitty bad big home builders hire crap trades people to build cheap slop houses for suckers that requires extensive ongoing maintenance. Meanwhile there are good builders and contractors that build durable quality for discerning customers.

The problem is exploitation of information asymmetries in the buyer market.

[gjsman-1000]

> The trades did and still do have standards.

Yes, they do; after regulation, and after the experimentation phase was forcibly ended. You can identify 'right and wrong' tile work, precisely because those standards were codified. This only reinforces my point: we're pre-standardization, they're post-standardization, and most pre-standardization ideas never work out anyway.

[samiv]

For a startup good quality code will never make a difference if everything else is wrong, i.e. product market fit etc. But conversely poor quality code can destroy a startup (the product cannot pivot fast enough, feature development grinds to a halt, developers leave, customers are unsatisfied etc.) even if everything else is right.

[cmrdporcupine]

I don't see working for most of my employers as "artistic."

I do see it as more of a craft than a typical trade. There are just too many ways to do things to compare it to e.g. an electrician. Our industry does not have (for better or for worse) a "code" like the building trades or even any mandated way to do things, and any attempts to impose (cough cough Ada, etc.) that have been met with outright defiance and contempt in fact.

When I'm working on my own projects -- it's a mix of both. It's a more creative endeavour.

[AlexandrB]

> I do see it as more of a craft than a typical trade. There are just too many ways to do things to compare it to e.g. an electrician.

There are sooo many ways to get electricity from one point to another. The reason that a lot of those options are no longer used is not because they don't exist but because they were legislated out. For example, if you want to run wild just run a single "hot" wire to all your outlets and connect each outlet's neutral to the nearest copper plumbing. Totally esoteric, but it would deliver electricity to appliances just fine. Safety is another matter.

[gjsman-1000]

I don't see this as really disproving my point.

If we look at most trades historically:

- Electricians in the 1920s? Infinite ways to do things. DC vs AC wars. Knob-and-tube vs conduit vs armored cable. Every electrician had their own "creative" approach to grounding. Regional variations, personal styles, competing philosophies. Almost all of those other ways are gone now. Early attempts to impose codes on electricians and electrical devices were disasters.

- Plumbers in the 1920s? Lead vs iron vs clay pipes. Every plumber had their own joint compound recipe. Creative interpretations of venting. Artistic trap designs. Now? Why does even installing a basic pipe require a license? We found out after enough cholera outbreaks, methane explosions, and backed-up city sewer systems.

- Doctors in the 1920s? Bloodletting, mercury treatments, lobotomies, and their own "creative" surgical techniques. They violently resisted the American Medical Association, licensing requirements, and standardized practices. The guy who suggested handwashing was literally driven insane by his colleagues.

We're early, not special. And just like society eventually had enough of amateur electricians, plumbers, and doctors in the 1920s, they'll have enough of us too. Give it 40 years, and they'll look at our data breaches and system designs the same way we look at exposed electrical wiring, obviously insane no matter the amount of warnings.

[surgical_fire]

While I agree with the general point of treating coding as any other craft or tradeskill, I disagree that in 40 yers non-technical people will be able to evaluate on system design or data breaches. Programming is too arcane and esoteric for non technical people. It all happens too behind the scenes for people to connect the dots.

I always say that code quality should be a requirement as any other. Many businesses are fine with rough edges and cut corners if it means things are sort of working today rather than being perfect tomorrow. Other businesses have a lower tolerance for fail and risk.