[Bjorkbat]

I think people underestimate the degree to which fun matters when it comes to productivity. If something isn’t fun then I’ll likely put it off. A 15 minute task can become hours, maybe days long, because I’m going to procrastinate on doing it.

If managing a bunch of AI agents is a very un-fun way to spend time, then I don’t think it’s the future. If the new way of doing this is more work and more tedium, then why the hell have we collectively decided this is the new way to work when historically the approach has been to automate and abstract tedium so we can focus on what matters?

The people selling you the future of work don’t necessarily know better than you.

[nyantaro1]

I think some people have more fun using LLM agents and generative AI tools. Not my case, but you can definitely read a bunch of comments from people using the tools and having fun/experience a state of flow like they have never had before

[alickz]

>I think some people have more fun using LLM agents and generative AI tools

I think I'm one of them

The rate at which I can explore new paths, or revisit old ones with a new perspective, has _exploded_ and I love it

But then I'm the kind of person who could spend hours on Wikipedia going from one page to the next, so that might have something to do with it

There's just so much to learn, I'm in my element

(Though I use agents mostly in Ask mode, or I manually review every line of code in Agent mode and never commit anything I don't understand)

[Bjorkbat]

I definitely agree with you there. I contracted with a company that had some older engineers who were in largely managerial roles who really liked using AI for personal projects, and honestly, I kind of get it. Their work flow was basically prompt, get results, prompt again with modifications, rinse and repeat, it's low effort and has a nice REPL-like loop. Paraphrasing a bit, but it basically re-kindled the joy of programming for them.

Haven't gotten the chance to ask, but I imagine managing a team of AI agents would feel a little too much like their day job, and consequently, suck the fun out of it.

That said, looking back, I think the reason why generative AI is so fun for so many coders is because programming has become unnecessarily complex. I have to admit, programming nowadays for me feels like a bit of a slog at times because of the sheer effort it can sometimes take to implement the simplest things. Doesn't have to be that way, but I think LLM copy-paste machines are probably the wrong direction.

[shortrounddev2]

I think the majority of people I've worked with who have the title of "Software Engineer" do not like coding. They got into it for the money/career, and dream of eventually moving out of coding into management. I can count the number of coders who I've met who like coding on one hand

[dgunay]

It's a different kind of fun for me.

I've been enjoying seeing my agents produce code while I am otherwise too busy to program, or seeing refined prompts & context engineering get better results. The boring kinds of programming tasks that I would normally put off are now lower friction, and now there's an element of workflow tinkering with all these different AI tools that lets me have some fun with it.

I also recently programmed for a few hours on a plane, with no LLM assistance whatsoever, and it was a refreshing way to reconnect with the joy of just internalizing a problem and fitting the pieces together in realtime. I am a bit sad that this kind of fun may no longer be lucrative in the near future, but I am thankful I got to experience it.

[vineyardmike]

I’ll be that voice I guess - I have fun “vibe coding”.

I’m a professional software engineer in Silicon Valley, and I’m fortunate to have been able to work on household-name consumer products across my career. I definitely know how to do “real” professional work “at scale” or whatever. Point is, I can do real work and understand things on my own, and I can generally review code and guide architecture and all that jazz. I became a software engineer because I love creating things that I and others could use, and I don’t care about “solving the puzzle” type satisfaction from writing code. In engineering school, software had the fastest turnaround time from idea in my head to something I could use, and that’s why I became a software engineer.

LLM assisted coding accelerates this trend. I can guide an LLM to help me create things quickly and easily. Things I can mostly create myself, of course, but I find it faster for a whole category of easy tasks like generating UIs. It really lowers the “activation energy” to experiment. I think of it like 3D printing, where I can prototype ideas in an afternoon instead of long weekend or a few weeks.

[jplusequalt]

>because I love creating things that I and others could use, and I don’t care about “solving the puzzle” type satisfaction from writing code.

Please don't take offense to this, but it sounds like you just don't like building software? It seems like the end goal is what excites you, not the process.

I think for many of us who prefer to write code ourselves, the relationship we have with building software is for the craft/intellectual stimulation. The working product is cool of course, but the real joy is knowing how to do something new.

[vineyardmike]

I understand where you're coming from (and I don't take offense), but based on your reply, I don't really feel like my views came across.

When I was a student, I took classes on chip and circuit design. One class, the professor had us work on all these complex circuits to do things like flash lights and produce various signals with analog circuits. The next lesson, he had us replace all that complex work with a microcontroller and 20 lines of C - "the way it's done in industry". The students mourned the loss of the "real" engineering because the circuit that required skill and careful math was replaced by a cheap chip and some trivial software. Their entire concept of the craft was destroyed when they were given a tool that replaced the "fun parts" with some trivial and comparatively boring work. That same concept of replacing circuits with digital logic scaled up is how extremely complex and well engineered circuits like FPGAs work.

Maybe it was just my earlier wording, but I think there is joy in the act of turning your ideas into something real - creation - not just having something real. Shopping is not building. Importantly, it takes careful thought and practice and a learned instinct to engineer and create things correctly, and do it repeatably, as the original article discusses. Craft is about practice, and learning, and trying something new with what you've learned.

If LLMs mean that I'll never have to write another trivial set of methods to store a JSON object in a SQL database, I don't think I'll lose any project-wide joy. Expressing creativity, and trying new things is what's great, not typing something that's been done a million times before. It's a tired analogy, but I do think of it more like a level of abstraction, like the LLM is a "compiler" for design docs or specifications. For myself, I usually don't see a difference between a prompt instructing an LLM to write some function, and the code for the function itself - in same way that a method in Java, bytecode, and asm are basically the same (with some caveats here around complexity and originality).

[saltcured]

For a lot of folks, the derivation of joy is not as scale-free as seems necessary to move up the hierarchy in this way. The jump in abstraction kills some joy by removing the tangible process. The tactile enjoyment someone gets from knitting is not there when operating a loom, much less when managing someone else who operates the loom.

The change in agency also kills the joy for me. I thrive on abstraction in the language and mathematics sense. But I do not at all enjoy indirection and delegation through unreliable agents. I am not interested in the loss of control and the new risk management task. I would never accept a "stochastic compiler" that offered to optimize my code but with risk of randomly changing the semantics. That determinism in the semantics needs to remain for me to accept a tool as a valid abstraction.

For context, I am a computer scientist by title and a programmer at heart. I got my CS degree from a liberal arts program rather than an engineering school. My temperament is more that of a hands-on artist at an easel or typewriter and not that of a manager of an engineering department. In my long career, I have thrived with peers or betters on collaborative projects. I have zero interest in "advancing" to a managerial role.

But honestly, the loss of control, lack of trust, and associated risk management is a big problem for me. I have rarely delegated work to less skilled or less reliable juniors, and I have never enjoyed that. The scenario of a confidently wrong subordinate is a huge trigger for me. It evokes long term trauma from growing up with a mentally ill family member. It feels like all of the burden of being a caregiver to someone with delusions, but with none of the moral context to make that worth the cost.

[vineyardmike]

There is nothing wrong with finding joy however one finds joy, and that can vary from person to person. Someone may find joy from knitting by hand, but maybe someone else finds joy from experimenting with pattern and material, and a loom lets them focus on the parts that interest them.

I'm glad you found what interests you.

[maplethorpe]

As a thought experiment, do you think it would be just as fun if you were given access to an infinite database of apps, and you were able to search through the database for an existing app that suit your needs, and then it gave it to you?

Or would it no longer be fun, because it no longer feels like creating?

[vineyardmike]

I'll repeat something I said to a sibling comment. I guess my original wasn't particularly clear.

> I think there is joy in the act of turning your ideas into something real - creation - not just having something real. Shopping is not building.

[maplethorpe]

No, you were clear. I suppose I was interested to see where you drew the distinction between creating and shopping.

For example, lets say LLMs improve to the point where they can now reliably one-shot entire apps with no more input than the original prompt. Would you no longer consider that creating? What's the difference between that and typing your prompt into an infinite app store?