[dkarl]

It's two different kinds of logic. The stereotypically male way makes sense to me: you take the weapons that could be used against someone and make them harmless. If you're fat, your friends call you fat, and you're like, hey, they know I'm fat, it's established that I'm fat, and they're my friends anyway! Being fat is fine! It takes all the fear out of it.

In my perception, the stereotypically female way is, if you're fat, nobody calls you fat. They're careful using the word around you. They might even tell you you're not fat. To me, that makes it seem like the friendship depends on the obvious lie that you're not fat, which makes it seem inevitable that it's going to end. One day they're going to make some acknowledgment of the evident truth that you're fat, and that's your signal that they're done with you and the friendship is over. To me, it feels like the truth is being kept in reserve for the day when they're going to shank you with it.

That's my (male) perspective. I'd rather have friends who acknowledge the truth about me and make me feel okay about it than friends who act like the truth about me isn't compatible with friendship and inclusion.

On an intellectual level, I get the (stereotypically) female perspective, too -- I get that it doesn't seem friendly to constantly remind someone of their shortcomings, and that a friend group should give someone an escape from oppressive social perceptions. But that doesn't resonate with me as much emotionally.

[BurningFrog]

"Men bond by saying nasty things they don’t mean. Women bond by saying nice things they don’t mean."

I think there is some truth to this old saying. If so, it would make sense that both sides find the way of the other side a bit off-putting.

[watwut]

I have seen men say nasty things they absolutely meant and bond by bullying other people. That dynamic is actually very common among men. You literally see it in male only social groups (such as army or prison) where bullying someone is how guys show in group membership.

You also see men say nice things they dont mean ... frequently to a women they then badmount or mock behind their backs.

[dkarl]

Eh... if you're fat, and your friends call you fat, they mean it. You're fat.

They just don't mean for it to hurt, and that's the wholesome part. Every time they call you fat, they're showing you that it's okay with them that you're fat.

If you're fat, and your friends tell you you're not fat, then to me that implies that the truth is too awful to say, but for your sake they'll pretend you're a different person. Which to me seems like it really underscores that it's not actually okay to be the way you are.

[nuancebydefault]

Recently a lady was telling me that she wasn't taken seriously. When a male colleague proposed something that she proposed years ago, people suddenly accepted it, she said. I explained her about 'implicit pecking order' in company culture and 'he is taller'. Then she said "yeah i'm short". Then I said yes but you are perfect the way you are, and I think she appreciated that.

[watwut]

Basically the company is sexist anf that is ok?

[nuancebydefault]

There's bias in _every_ company, every culture even. The bias is towards age, race, height, beauty, weight, as well as gender. I live in one of the most inclusive countries in the world and work for a very inclusive company. Still, pecking order and biases exist. I think it is human nature and maybe it is fine even.

[lmf4lol]

there are so many potential confounders in that story that might influence why the proposal was accepted. maybe his co-worker just proposed it too early and no one was ready for it?

[BurningFrog]

Fair enough. They do mean it, but not it in a nasty way.

[nuancebydefault]

I haven't looked at this topic this way, but now this really does make sense! I remember a lady asking me once how tall I am. I'm rather tall and in fact I don't like being asked that, since it is obvious that I am tall and the actual number does not matter. I responded with my height and immediately asked: what is your weight? Wrong question. In my male brain it was an equal kind of question. In the female brain totally not.

[kulahan]

Probably because it's a completely unrelated question. Height and weight are only similar in that they're both descriptors of something physical. That's... pretty much it. Height is basically immutable. More of it is not bad. Less of it is not bad. It's not particularly reflective of lifestyle outside of simply not being malnourished. It's just... there.

Weight, obviously, is nothing like this. It absolutely comes off like you're trying to be snarky.

[diordiderot]

> Less of it is not bad.

Many men would disagree. Many women would also disagree.

Edit: I also thought that immutable characteristics where the ones we should be most sensitive towards

[em-bee]

she was trying to calcute your BMI ;-)

but yeah, that's a conversation i would have with my doctor, not an acquaintance.

[kiba]

Interesting.

I don't think it's OK or fine to be fat. It's a health risk. But I also don't think that "fat shaming" is OK either.