[abxyz]

The problem with using clinical phrases to describe normal behavior is demonstrated in this post. "Social anxiety" has a specific clinical meaning that is not covered by this post. The post is actually discussing a very natural and rational nervousness that normal people have in social situations. The post is providing a way of thinking about that nervousness that can help reduce it, for the nervous person's benefit, and it's great if that works, but it's not addressing social anxiety.

Social anxiety is a condition that cannot be thought away, you cannot rationalize social anxiety nor can it be represented as a cost/benefit analysis of risk of being disliked vs. reward of being liked. You can feel socially anxious without having social anxiety. You can be depressed without having depression. You will be depressed after your beloved pet dies. You will be socially anxious walking into a room full of people you haven't met before.

[ants_everywhere]

I agree with you as a general rule. But this is actually pretty close to how Social Anxiety is defined. It's about the fear of being negatively evaluated or embarrassed.

For example the DSM definition https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK519712/table/ch3.t12/ or the Mayo Clinic explainer page https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/social-anxiet....

I think what this blog post is getting at is describing for people the difference between fear of negative evaluation and positive desire to be liked.

One thing the post misses is that sometimes these are learned behaviors that come from a lifetime of experience being disliked for no obvious reason. For example, sometimes outgoing autistic children develop social anxiety after their peers reject them repeatedly.

[refurb]

> It's about the fear of being negatively evaluated or embarrassed.

It's not just a fear, it's "persistent and intense fear". and like most psychological disorders, a key part of the definition includes "a negative impact on the person's functioning in daily life".

Like OP said, fear of being embarrassed is entirely normal and healthy response. It's not social anxiety nor a psychiatric disoder.

It's not different than OCD, phobias, etc. They can all be entirely normal responses. What makes them a disorder is the level of intensity and the impact on the person's life.

[smeej]

> sometimes outgoing autistic children develop social anxiety after their peers reject them repeatedly.

As a middle-aged woman who can't figure out what the benefits would be that would outweigh the costs of pursuing formal diagnosis at this stage, I related a lot harder to that line than I wanted to.

I've always been extraverted. I always do fine in new interactions, because I'm chronically interested in anything I don't already know well, especially if someone else is passionate about it. Most of my first meetings with people quickly become conversations where I'm listening attentively and asking interested questions about some niche thing they love and their friends and family members are sick of hearing about. I get stellar reviews on initial conversations at unstructured social events.

And yet I spend the vast majority of my time at home by myself because after about the fourth interaction, something about me registers as "off" to other people and they start to distance themselves from me. I have never understood why.

I'm not socially anxious, at least not in the typical "can't get out and meet new people" way. I just can't take the never-ending hope-rejection loop anymore.

[trogdor]

> after about the fourth interaction, something about me registers as "off" to other people and they start to distance themselves from me. I have never understood why

I’m not sure it would be helpful, but have you tried asking anyone?

[eszed]

Speaking strictly for myself, it's because I did eye contact wrong.

As a teenager, with standard-issue high-function ASD eye-contact aversion: fake it, by looking only at the bridges of people's noses.

After learning, from doing theatre, that vulnerability is amazing, actually, and eye-contact is powerful: try for it, by looking fixidly at one of their eyes.

After being told by a kind friend, in my early twenties, that I had a "staring problem": shift focus between both of their eyes.

Soon after: figure out that you're supposed to look away from their eyes sometimes.

Since: try to pick up and match their gaze-rhythm. I still have difficulty doing this with some people: there are folks who don't seem to have a rhythm. I don't get them!

My wife told me a few weeks ago that when we first got together (over a decade ago) that the times I forgot to mask - during sex, specifically - sufficiently weirded her out that it's why she broke up with me (for about twenty minutes, lol; she reconsidered on her own). Now, bless her, she says she likes it when I "stare", because she says she knows it means I'm comfortable with her and feeling relaxed.

I've got other peculiarities - and some I haven't noticed yet, I'm sure! - but that's a big one, and how I've dealt with it. I hope that helps someone.

[trogdor]

That’s really interesting. Thanks for explaining.

[moribunda]

I second this suggestion. This might sound obvious but during my therapy my psychologist asked me to do this, but in a non-personal/non-threatening way for the relation. Just by telling them that I'm working through my issues and I'd like to get an honest (best would be written/no-interaction type) feedback - what makes them uncomfortable etc. This helped me a lot - to see how different the transmission was on the receiving end from my intentions.

[smeej]

The annoying thing is that nobody I've asked can pinpoint what it is.

[gemstones]

It's about a specific type of debilitating fear. The DSM has a rule for criteria that, to be considered as having a condition, it must seriously affect your ability to live a normal life.

Most social anxiety is not debilitating, and would not meet the diagnosis. This is why therapists receive so much training - you must encounter enough people with a truly debilitating fear that you know when to diagnose it.

[LorenPechtel]

It's not just embarrassed, it's about avoiding being used as a punching bag by the local bullies the school will do nothing about.

And, yes, when the typical outcome is exclusion without any reason, or without a reason that you have any control over (such as that bully, people don't want to be around the targets because it might spill onto them) what else would you expect?

[rhcom2]

> You will be depressed after your beloved pet dies.

You'll experience *grief* after a pet dies. We've pathologizing grief to a point that it makes it harder for those experiencing both grief and depression, two separate (but sometimes linked) human conditions.

https://undark.org/2022/07/21/the-hidden-dangers-of-patholog...

[tangotaylor]

I completely agree and I don’t like when non-medical professionals take these terms too seriously.

Psychiatrists are way better equipped to diagnose these things not because they can read diagnostic manuals (anyone can) but because their training exposes them to real cases.

There’s a world of difference between feeling awkward and quiet at a social event vs having heart palpitations and panic attacks that prevent you from even going outside.

[dec0dedab0de]

You can feel socially anxious without having social anxiety.

That is not true in plain English, just because a particular profession decides to use words one way, does not mean the definitions change for the rest of us.

[nico]

> just because a particular profession decides to use words one way, does not mean the definitions change for the rest of us

This is a particular pain in physics, which has taken very commonly used words and given them a very narrowly defined meaning, within a strict framework - like the words Energy or Work

[jives]

Exactly right. And you might waste years of your life trying to "fix" social anxiety by attempting to change your mindset or trying to adopt new social practices. (Speaking from experience.)

[gjgtcbkj]

Except it’s not. It can be thought away, under enough pressure people can do extraordinary things. There is just no such pressure in society now. I’ve suffered immensely in my life, and if you describe your condition as “anxiety” you simply aren’t suffering enough for treatment to have any real impact.

If you think you’re suffering rises to the medical treatable level please develop a more serious condition before getting on a waitlist. All doctors are taken up on your non-physical problems and you don’t immediately need care like I do.

[stldev]

"The post is ... not addressing social anxiety."

Exactly this. The article conflates normal social nervousness with an actual disorder, then provides a reframe that may help with nervousness (?) but completely misunderstands the clinical condition.

[h14h]

I didn't get the sense that this article was trying to help people rationalize away social anxiety. Rather, it seemed much more that it was trying to get the socially anxious to accurately assess the nature (and effects) of their reactionary behavior.

IMO it's a useful first step, as a major facet of treating anxiety disorders with CBT involves challenging negative thoughts and beliefs and replacing them with positive alternatives.

Properly understanding that your anxious lizard brain is (successfully) trying to protect you from the threat of being disliked helps reframe that behavior in a positive light.

[ge96]

> Social anxiety is a condition that cannot be thought away

I hope not, I don't want to be hooked on some prescription meds eg. what about exposure therapy

I do wonder if being nervous to talk to a hot girl is the same as social anxiety I mean I'm not the jock/main attention guy either but I can talk to strangers (guys or not attractive women)

[veunes]

I do think posts like this can still be valuable for people on the edge

[tomhowsalterego]

He (and it’s a he, of course) says this on a forum full of people who have convinced themselves they’re neurodivergent.

inb4 we live in a society etc