[elvisloops]

There's a difference between what Signal does in the app and a manual action a user performs outside of the app. It is not realistic to expect that people will see a feature Signal has built for them in the app and understand the underlying implications to "post compromise security" and "forward secrecy" that it may have.

The expectation is that what happens inside Signal is secure, and the features Signal provides are secure. If the idea is that nobody is going to enable this feature, then why build it? If the idea is that many people are going to enable this feature, then this entire cryptographic protocol is meaningless.

[immibis]

These things can still be used as evidence. The process used by the police of a rogue country (or any other adversary) isn't a cryptographer's highly technical wet dream or nightmare. They simply look at the screen of your phone saying you sent or received a message, and as far as the adversary is concerned, that proves you sent or received it. Even if you didn't. (Actually, they use Cellebrite and just trust whatever the Cellebrite analyzer outputs, which is basically what your screen would have said)

I've yet to see a protocol that lets you convincingly insert fake messages into both sides of your own chat history, especially in a way that isn't detectable by say, sqlite rowid order, but that would be an interesting idea for where to take this sort of thing.

[jfyi]

Those are the breaks though when catering to a large audience with wildly differing threat models. Do you throw away users that are looking for a vague sense of security so they run off somewhere else less secure because you lack some feature?

If you are just looking for "secure(TM)[X]", you are making a mistake somewhere anyway.

If your life or livelihood depends on it, you learn what the impact of every choice is and you painstakingly keep to your opsec.

Somewhere between the two user action becomes a necessity. You need to judge where that point is for you and take responsibility for it because nobody else can guarantee it.

[C4K3]

At the very least they should have excluded any chats with disappearing messages enabled from being included in backups.

With disappearing messages off it was already reasonable to assume that a compromise of a counterparty's phone would result in exposure of all previous messages, so enabling backups wouldn't expose you to new risk.

That would cater to those who want to keep their chat history forever without exposing those with disappearing messages enabled to new risk.

[elvisloops]

The history of Signal has been to provide the security properties we're talking about without users having to think about it or understand. To suddenly remove forward secrecy is a very big change, and it isn't one that they seem to have acknowledged or documented. Like this blog post: they are making an announcement that they have a "post-quantum ratchet," when they have effectively removed the ratchet. It's theater.

[jfyi]

I think you missed the point entirely. You can't have security without thinking about it. You can have vague sense of security, which is the theater you are talking about.

Show me a company anywhere that can provide security without user thought and deliberate action. It's a fantasy to believe anything you don't have to think about isn't theater. Hell, if you aren't thinking about it, you're one of the actors in that theater.