[pixl97]

>I see far fewer discussions of open source as compared to AI.

Because the big discussions of open source were decades ago now. If you add up all the discussions of open source in the past I'd assume they'd out number the AI discussions now. Also, there is very little novel to discuss about open source. Now novel and 'important' are different things, but novel is what tends to write articles and get eyeballs.

[Imustaskforhelp]

I don't really know man half the population doesn't know what open source means or cares whereas a lot of people seemingly have lots of opinions about AI.

One can liberate people from big tech and the other ties them to it in sorts. And there are very very more conversations about the latter than the former.

The point of discussion is to bring change. There has been a real change in how usable Linux has been lets say compared to past but now its really about user adoption I suppose. I genuinely think that we might need to reopen that discussion window as a lot of people are getting interested in linux/homelabbing /realizing that they can degoogle and what not to really get privacy.

Those discussions brought a change into how open source software is written today (git) etc. but now we probably might need discussions about the awareness of these open source products to the general public if we truly want mass adoption I suppose.

What are your thoughts?

[pixl97]

>One can liberate people from big tech

A very small portion of the population, yes.

The percentage of the population that is going to run things on their own is comparatively tiny. Mass adoption isn't going to happen because convenience and support is what most people want. Again, these things have been discussed for decades, and yet we keep seeing tighter and tighter centralization of data and services. In phones it's pretty much dead. You have apple (totally locked) and Google (on their way to totally locked).

[Imustaskforhelp]

yes I understand and your points are valid.

Yet I still feel like things like grapheneos are really valid nowadays and there are definitely some de-facto low hanging fruits of open source where you still get the same-ish level of convenience and support and the only reason I can't think of the same thing happening is knowledge.

my country is literally filled with everyone owning whatsapp, when I ask people why not signal... they don't even know what signal is.

Everyone has always been doing chats on whatsapp and now there is this weird lock-in but all it takes is for masses to use signal and spread the word as an example for a small victory towards a path of good. I will try to do my part I suppose, we can all be pessimist but atleast I feel deep down that we can create a system of convenience and support for other open source projects too if we can donate to these projects too and have a reasonable assessment of that too.

Too many people think of open source as free and yes its free but I also think that its the responsibility of us as a whole as a society to fund open source if we want support otherwise we should stop thinking about it.

Regarding google locking down, what can I say except that I think that this decision should be fought against with as much scrutiny by the people advocating for freedom as possible.

There is a way to do things with adb but still, it is a shame that google went down this path and we should definitely fight against this too of sorts but I have hope in grapheneos + f-droid too tho. I definitely need to enlighten myself more if the google's thing is gonna cause an issue for things like grapheneos too as that would be a real deal breaker / cause even more severe issues as from what I know grapheneos is one of the safest os roms/ most privacy friendly android rom for mobile and gives a lot of security advantages that are definitely something to look at and admire.

[SketchySeaBeast]

> I don't really know man half the population doesn't know what open source means or cares whereas a lot of people seemingly have lots of opinions about AI.

I'm not the person you responded to, but I'm certain that way less than half the population knows about or considers open source, that's one of those living in a bubble illusions.

Ultimately those people aren't here and have no interest in being here.

[Imustaskforhelp]

I agree that those people aren't here and have no interest.

I would say that it is the issue of lack of knowledge if anything.

Yes, there is an infinite amount of knowledge available on the internet regarding open source and that's honestly where I learnt about stuff but its overwhelming at first and required something to kickstart the whole process/ be a catalyst of sorts.

Realizing using linux that privacy matters a lot and then realizing that I can just search open source alternative to X really helped me in the beggining/still sometimes does and there are a lot of low hanging fruits that can just be told for people to follow (like use signal instead of whatsapp) so there's definitely that.

I definitely am thinking about doing something about it tbh the more I think about it but I think that partially why people don't go around doing this is because of how AI seemingly sells and open source fundamentally doesn't sell

[SketchySeaBeast]

It's not knowledge, it's interest. You go looking because you care. But people don't even use desktops anymore. They could, but they don't, what's the point? I know devs who haven't even put together their own PCs in decades if they ever did at all.

I don't know how you shift that, but getting people interested would be the first step. They need to have a reason to want to learn.

[johnnyanmac]

>They need to have a reason to want to learn.

Supposedly evveryone's mad over paywalls and enshittification and slop, but no one wants to take the time find geuine, curious content anymore.

As far as I'm concerned, the frog it cooked already. immediate dopamine trumps over the idea of ever owning anything in life.

[pessimizer]

There's an enormous amount to discuss about "open source," and it's neglected enough that the bro generation of programmers doesn't even understand it, or the difference between it and Free software, and what those differences materially mean to developers and the public at large.

The reason that HN is eaten up by LLMs is because it's eaten by any trendy topic that's in the mainstream news. HN used to be directed by an active and opinionated mind in pg, and it's been left to salaried, caretaking censors whose primary job is to make sure the site doesn't become an embarrassment. This mainly consists of artificially excluding discussions that may lead to energetic debate; debate that usually becomes swamped with low-quality comments by people speaking outside of their expertise, and can make the place look like a cesspool.

But energetic debate is where all of the energy is. The problem isn't those topics, the problem is that those topics also take a lot of energy to moderate the problems out of. We're experiencing an abandoned place, not a place driven by anything internal. It's an old barn that is kept clean just so it doesn't catch on fire.

We don't talk about FOSS because it isn't a general topic that is in the mainstream news, not because it isn't an important topic that is more vital to discuss than ever, in the face of monopoly, walled-gardens, verified signatures and centralization.

A positive editor like pg was aware of this, and treated the site as his personal playground. It partially revolved around what were essentially his journal entries. I only ever ended up on this site because he decided one day to have every front page article be about Erlang, of all things.

edit: and to add to the penultimate paragraph, an energetic discussion of FOSS that lead to productive projects and statements by people of influence would influence the mainstream. This place used to make stories, not just Digg them. The purpose of the site (other than to run something on Arc) seemed to me to be to juice new YC startups in a way that would leak into the general media. It doesn't even seem useful for YC any more.

[Karrot_Kream]

You've really hit the nail on the head on how I feel. Especially with this line:

> This place used to make stories, not just Digg them.

I've started to dread most conversations about FOSS on this site because they just turn into the same tired old high-energy, low-quality conversation repeated over and over again. There's little incentive for anyone of influence or expertise to contribute because, well, all of these conversations end up the same way.

I guess I disagree on your view of the moderation of this site. While it's true that pg used to do a lot of guidance and tastemaking on HN, the scale of the site was small enough where he could. At this point the site is massive and only growing and this new userbase expects a Digg or Reddit like norm, not one that drives tastemaking. I think the site would require a fundamental rehaul to offer an individual or a group the tastemaking that pg could do when the site was a fraction of the size.

I also think, for better or for worse, that HN has "accepted" not being the tastemaker anymore and becoming another tech news aggregator. It's because the eyeballs of folks new to these issues doesn't really fall onto this site anymore. For a while that had been Twitter but now that Twitter is under Musk, it's lost that distinction and now tech discussions don't seem to have a good home.

[pixl97]

Even if pg where here to do so, it wouldn't happen the way you think it would. Open source got ate by AWS and closed behind paid for services. We had those discussions in the past, we lost, the market spoke.

Moreso the internet evolved into something we don't like. In the early days it wasn't that hard to have an energetic conversation because you were having conversations with real people at their digression. Yes, there were some number of trolls you had to deal with, but over time they went from being the exception to being the rule. Any and every site you create now, the moment you collect a worthwhile market will be flooded with those attempting to market their wares to the point that actual conversation can no longer exist. The walled-gardens and verified signatures are a side effect of the infection that the internet has become.

The world you lived in aged and died and now a brave new world screams for your attention 24/7 without care for your health or sanity. The days where a large portion of people were into programming because they enjoyed it are long past. People need paychecks to support the ever spiraling costs of basic needs. Consolidation and monopolies aren't just a thing in websites and computer hardware, it's a thing everywhere with everything especially in the US. The power scaling laws of technology have come home to roost. The cyberpunk dystopia we were warned of is already here and the masses invited it with open arms.

The FOSS utopianist need to realize they lost, and it's human laziness and apathy that was the killing blow. If you can come to terms with that, maybe a rebirth of FOSS that targets our base instincts can arise.

[Imustaskforhelp]

Man this is really a great comment that I just read and I agree soo much about the maybe a rebirth of Foss that targets our base instincts can arise.

I think that a very solid (energetic) discussion can take place on that too and its just a pleasure that even now, to me, this is full of energy and maybe mimics a sense of spirit of that energy the parent comment was referring to.

I actually wanted to share that energy and I really read this comment and recorded myself a video of reading this whole text from start just to reach your post which I know isn't going to get anywhere but I just wanted this message to be beyond this thread. It definitely gave me some new insights and was a fun exercise in making me less shy around the camera. I want to create memes like burialgoods/anything to really spread this message in sorts and other messages too regarding open source. There is so much to be done :)

But I also want to do it in a hopeful way, we can come with terms on things, we should and try to advocate for the rebirth of Foss as you say.

It genuinely makes one feel a bit hopeless but I think that the approach of looking at the uncomfortable and then still wanting a rebirth/fighting for it is something worth looking for in our lifetimes.

[Karrot_Kream]

> Moreso the internet evolved into something we don't like.

> If you can come to terms with that, maybe a rebirth of FOSS that targets our base instincts can arise.

> The cyberpunk dystopia we were warned of is already here and the masses invited it with open arms.

Mature conversations need to accept reality to move forward. I disagree with the implication in your comment that we are in uniquely lost times. I think FOSS was under much, much more threat in the Microsoft and proprietary software times than it is now. Remember when encryption was locked by the NSA? I just think the community on this site has locked itself into a local minimum of getting frustrated and sad over the state of things they don't like. Once any upvote-based site gets locked into one of these local minima it becomes really hard to escape as the incentive structure of voting continues to reward tapping into the same emotions.

[johnnyanmac]

>I disagree with the implication in your comment that we are in uniquely lost times.

It's not unique, but it the situation is much more dire.

>I think FOSS was under much, much more threat in the Microsoft and proprietary software times than it is now.

I disagree. FOSS's appeal is exactly in how it's there for everyone. no proprietary software can change that. And we've seen over the decades that throwing billions at the problem doesn't make something billions of times better.

Today? You share info and your content might be scraped into submission. You get bombarded by spam and bad faith actors to a point where moderation is now a forefront of how to approach a release, and not just a little thing to do a few minutes a day. Finding a commuity to share your project with is harder than ever as everyone is trying to push their own (often paid) idea out with much more vigor. And of course, less peopel can even afford to contribute to begin with.

These aren't just "vibes". It's genuinely more difficult to navigate this space these days. Unless you submit to some centralized serviceto take care of that for you.

>Mature conversations need to accept reality to move forward.

Mature conversations also realize there is no "single" reality. But a variety of perspectives, viewpoints, and opinions. Sure, some people are genuinely better off abandoning FOSS and sustaiing themselves on selling software. That doesn't necessarily justify everyone abandoning FOSS, though.

[johnnyanmac]

>maybe a rebirth of FOSS that targets our base instincts can arise.

doesn't soud like an environment worth rebirthing if we need to surrender to the very dark arts FOSS rejected. If something is free but still trying to stroke "base instinctincts", it's basically propoganda. When you're not winning dollars, you're winning mindshare.

I just wanted to make video games, man. And maybe help others make even better video games. I'm not trying to start a cult.

[Imustaskforhelp]

That is an insight that my age simply didn't bring.

I am not sure about the accuracy of it as I was there after the AI era and I have only seen the slow but steady creep of it.

> This place used to make stories, not just Digg them

This does give me goosebumps.

Honestly, I like this place because it has a lot of nice people and we are more alike and different and it's just that this seems to be the place I have decided to call a home to all of my ramblings/thoughts on essentially everything.

The only other social media that I operate is maybe discord and a very small dose of reddit.

it does seem to me that somewhere along the internet, we might have lost it, or atleast its hidden, waiting to be discovered.

I can't help but share things like julia evan's zines and how he inspired one day when I messaged him on mail about being worried about AI when he shared me somebody who had created a better UI for the man pages and so many other interesting pages which really reflected personality that I didn't know exist.

I don't really think that we can do over hackernews but there is certainly a possibility of atleast having niche discussions like erlang and discussing them could lead to more people exposure's to it... which can benefit them or the community!

I can maybe think of that we might need to use something like matrix to atleast create a public community with better moderation if that's the issue.

I think the HN mods are also trying their best but if we want opinions, the best way I right now could think of to fixing this as an issue might be to creating a hackernews but not for AI which I had actually suggested once but everybody just said to me to block posts about AI or to create a tracker which removes all AI references at most, the post is definitely lost in my comments but I definitely remember it.

I can understand where you are coming from and I think that this place isn't a substitute for a place like that and we still might need a place like that too if we become too pessimistic of y-combinator.

Never give up hope I suppose :)

[pixl97]

>creating a hackernews but not for AI

With the quality of modern AI this really isn't possible. Or as someone else said "There is considerable overlap between the intelligence of the smartest bears and the dumbest tourists"

On the internet a community is almost always growing or dying, there is no real inbetween. Communities that make the news do so because those sites are accessible. The problem is being accessible to humans ensures that bots will show up and cause problems, so now you have the added responsibility of moderation and spam control which involves politics at the end of the day.

[ragall]

> This does give me goosebumps.

In earlier times, Slashdot used to make stories.

[johnnyanmac]

>it's neglected enough that the bro generation of programmers doesn't even understand it, or the difference between it and Free software, and what those differences materially mean to developers and the public at large.

I concur, there's clearly been a generational shift away from the idea of making a cool thing and sharing it. Part of it is economic: even programmers can struggle with bills these days, and the last thing someone paycheck to paycheck (or laid off) can do it take time to volunteer their talents to FOSS.

And the lack of investment seems to be creeping up slowly: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42849640

[Imustaskforhelp]

It seems to me that as for a lot of things... things boil down to the economics.

I had thought about bringing attention to it but now I am not even sure what it would mean.

I doubt that I could be a person who can advocate for open source full time while someone pays me, that's the main issue. I am okay with just enough to satisfy and I am even satisfied with less but to me, atleast right now, Advocacy for open source does seem to be part time unless I want to take a massive gamble of my life which I thought of but I am just not comfortable right now, its definitely complicated and I am not sure