[duothrowaway99]

Both of my parents are teachers of a European language. They both have phd's in linguistics, and rate very highly with students (who basically adore them).

All of this context to say that not once has anyone using Duolingo been able to "test out" of the first ("101") class that they teach. Duolingo self-learners come in with a very unequal mix of vocabulary and... not much else. Unable to use declension properly [0], unaware of most rules around gender, verb tenses, etc.

I'm sure (and I should look it up) that there have been academic papers written on these quite different methods/approaches: gamified learning vs "academic" learning, immersion by moving to a country, etc.

But in my parents' experience of teaching (which spans ~40 yrs), Duolingo students pretty much all became disappointed in the app: these students thought that they had developed skills when it turns out they mostly got addicted to a game that overpromised useful learning over entertainment.

---

Imho, the ugly truth is that language learning as an adult is deeply hard and requires a tremendous amount of effort and "tricks" to keep yourself motivated. People who watch native media with subtitles, play with AI apps (such as the YC backed https://www.issen.com/ which is quite nice), take a mix of "classic" classes, spend time in a country where the language is spoken and force themselves into situations where they "have" to speak, etc. all do much better. But it's a ton of effort.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declension

[epistasis]

The biggest problem with Duo are the extremely limited exercises and educational materials. Gamification is great.

But you're not going to learn declension and cases from repeating the same few stilted examples that don't even exhibit enough variety to pick up the underlying rules, especially as an adult.

Duolingo is trying to do implicit language learning but the language input is far too narrow.

I used Duolingo to start learning a language with a different alphabet, and it taught me the alphabet, the sounds, and some basic vocabulary. But it couldn't teach me verb conjugation, noun declension, plurals, ownership, etc. etc. etc. That I needed a teacher for.

With the teacher, I then used Anki cards to help with remembering more vocab and with keeping things fresh everyday in between lessons. Duolingo could be that, if they had enough examples, perhaps. I would prefer Duolingo type exercises over my Anki cards, as well as the streak and friendship network effects, but there's simply not enough content.

[superultra]

> Gamification is great.

Is it?

I think the gamification is at the core of why Duolingo has persisted even though it doesn’t work.

At any point in real learning, or in acquiring any kind of skill in anything, one hits a plateau and the thing becomes boring or dull or hard. Internal drive to learn the thing must overcome the drudgery of repetition until you exceed that plateau. And then eventually there’s another one down the road.

What’s more is that the more we learn the more we get rewarded for confronting and pushing through the boring or hard. It’s a real reward that dopamine is evolutionarily designed to encourage. In a way, learning is already as “gamified” as it needs to be.

Gamification on the other hand convinces us that we’re making progress but it’s completely artificial. It manipulates dopamine in ways that don’t encourage actual and more learning. Instead gamification rewards gamification.

We need less gamification in our world and more internalification.

[jimbokun]

> spend time in a country where the language is spoken and force themselves into situations where they "have" to speak, etc.

In the end this is the only one that matters.

You can do things before going to that country that will help. But you'll never be close to fluent without taking that final step.

[amatecha]

For real. My French always skyrockets every time I take any vacation to France, even for a week. After just one day I'm back to being able to understand a lot of what people are saying and respond pretty comfortably. It's also surprising how quickly the words come back to me after having been away for a year or whatever, with minimal practice between.

[qingcharles]

Same. I need to practice more when I'm outside the country. I remember last time I'd just arrived in Brussels and got a snack at a cafe and had to check on my phone how to ask for the bill. I feel like a dummy for the first day or so until everything unlocks.

[HankStallone]

My high school French teacher said if we really wanted to learn a language, go live there for a couple months.

Of course, that's easier said than done (and paid for). But if you can afford the money and time away from home, it's probably the way to go.

[Antibabelic]

I've never been to an English-speaking country and yet I'm pretty close to fluent. How come?

[lm28469]

English is relatively easy and the default "culture" (games, music, movies, shows, internet, &c.) language for like half of the planet, plus it's mandatory in schools in most of the west.

[Antibabelic]

Many people throughout the world certainly do not find it "easy".

[lm28469]

Yeah that would be the other half of the planet I mention in my comment.

[Anthony-G]

I’d broadly agree with this critique but I’ve had some success with Duolingo. About 10 years ago, I used it with the aim of learning enough Spanish to get by for a two-week holiday.

While learning useful language constructs (gender of nouns and pronouns, how to conjugate common verbs), I also had to learn some useless – to me – vocabulary, e.g., names of animals at the zoo. Anyhow, after a 2-3 months of using Duolingo, I had learned enough to be able to communicate with bus-drivers and shop staff. My conclusion was that Duolingo would be a useful tool to complement more structured learning.

I’m currently learning guitar and I feel the same way about Rocksmith: it’s a lot of fun and a great tool to incentivise me to pick up the guitar but it doesn’t substitute a more structured learning course and it completely neglects the theory of music.

[KPGv2]

> gamified learning vs "academic" learning, immersion by moving to a country,

I think it's not unreasonable to point out that, at least for Americans (I'm guessing the largest user base of Duolingo), of the three options you listed, one costs tens of thousands of dollars for us (academic instruction), and the other is virtually impossible to do because we aren't part of a bloc of nations with border freedom (immersion).

[duothrowaway99]

There are a number of institutes/colleges dedicated to language learning in the US: Alliance Française [0], Goethe institute [1] with multiple satellite offices around the country, all offering language classes for a few hundred dollars.

There are a multitude, nay - infinite! number of online classes with teachers who will use "traditional", textbook-based approaches. [2]

Young Americans regularly go for 1-2-3 month trips to Italy, France, Germany, etc. American passports give folks a ton of latitude. You can stay in a hostel and eat cheaply - many thousands of people have done it.

I'm not saying it's easy, but I will definitely push back on the idea that it's impossible.

(and will also absolutely agree that the convenience of an app will be 10,000,000x more tempting to use than doing any of the above)

[0] https://www.afusa.org/

[1] https://www.goethe.de/ins/us/en/index.html

[2] https://www.italki.com/en/teachers/french

[vel0city]

> Young Americans regularly go for 1-2-3 month trips to Italy, France, Germany, etc

Its really not that common outside of really wealthy people. Only 50% or so Americans under 30 years old even have a passport, much less spend months overseas. And that's a percentage that has gone way up over the years. In fact, its probably more common to find people that have barely even left the same state than have traveled in Europe, especially so for spending any appreciable amount of time in any particular part of Europe.

https://today.yougov.com/travel/articles/46028-adults-under-...

[foobarian]

I have a teen who's been using DuoLingo for French for a while but hit a ceiling with spoken language. I suggested to him to look around for voice chats with French speakers like maybe on Discord but it's a desert out there. Wonder if you have some experience with using these paid options to recommend. Would be neat if there could be something without a rigid course-like structure he could join occasionally for low-key conversation practice.

[duothrowaway99]

Some Alliance Française outposts offer online classes, and italki has a number of great tutors. It always depends on the teacher you work with ofc, but I know someone who had great experience with both.

There are also a number of social media influencers (who probably were language tutors in a past life) that run online paid communities aka you pay to be part of their language community, and then have access to classes, zoom calls, etc.

They're harder to find / it's more difficult to immediately parse which ones will be good. But you can get a preview of "how they are" by consuming what they publish. For instance, for Canadian (Quebec) French, these are great:

https://www.youtube.com/@wanderingfrench

https://www.youtube.com/@maprofdefrancais

https://www.frenchwithfrederic.com/

I'm sure there are equivalents for French from France, and other languages. Searching "Learn {language name}" on YouTube/Instagram would be a good start.

[mynameisash]

> keep yourself motivated

As an entertainment device, Duolingo is fine. I used it to start my French journey, not truly appreciating the INCREDIBLE difficulty and quantity of effort required. Fortunately for me, I was and still am super curious about languages, and I really want to learn.

I speak French now at roughly a B2 level. When I travel to la Francophonie, I get by, and people are usually reasonably impressed by my level (or at least are humoring me, which is fine). But my friends and family who have seen me hold conversations in French, as impressed as they may be, would never put in the amount of effort that I have.

[tazjin]

Personally I like Babbel. It looks a bit dated (or did the last time I used it), but its content is really good and it helped me bootstrap 3 out of the 5 languages I speak fluently.

There's no gamification like in Duolingo, you have to bring your own motivation and endure the UI, but it really does get you to the level where you can continue on your own.

[bluebarbet]

This. Same experience. It's worth noting that Babbel is designed with much input from actual language teachers, not just statisticians and coders. It also received funding from the EU, which makes a subscription a particularly good deal.

[stronglikedan]

It's funny that Issen doesn't have HN on its "how did you hear about us" list.

[agnishom]

issen looks rather interesting at a first glance. Thanks for the pointer.

[edem]

I want to learn German (as an adult). What should I do then?

[duothrowaway99]

Already mentioned elsewhere, but take a look at https://www.goethe.de/en/spr/kur.html , search for "Goethe Institut" on Google Maps, consider working with someone from https://www.italki.com/en/teachers/german , search for "learn german" on YouTube, etc.

Babbel was mentioned a few times, Pimsleur as well (they're different companies/methods), https://www.languagetransfer.org/ ...

Mix and match to find what works for you - what seems fun and motivating.

Oh, and consider informal irl meetings as well - https://www.meetup.com/topics/german/ (depending where you live ofc)

[edem]

Thank you, I'll take a look at these!

[mentos]

Your parents have any impression of students that used Pimsleur?

[duothrowaway99]

I don't remember what's their impression of it, sorry. But I definitely know someone who loved and used Pimsleur in her journey to learn French (in addition to the other tools I already mentioned)