[next_xibalba]

The capitalist box is the best box there is, for better or worse.

It may also be worth pointing out that many of the greatest scientific breakthroughs in human history were either achieved before institutional science existed in a modern form, or were achieved outside the formal system. We may have been better off with a system in which science was left to a tiny elite of eccentric geniuses with academic freedom. It certainly doesn't seem as though society is bettered by cranking out 1,000 government funded PoliSci Phds each year.

[01HNNWZ0MV43FF]

It's certainly an effective lawnmower, I just wish it didn't run over so many feet!

[harimau777]

Capitalism has created a hell world where anything that makes life worth living has long since been stripped for profit.

[next_xibalba]

You should read about the history of communism. Until you do, you have no idea how utterly horrible life can get.

[harimau777]

I'm not sure that's really relevant. If capitalism fails to allow people to live worthwhile lives, then I don't think it helps much to say some other system is worse. That doesn't change the fact that capitalism is a failed system.

[XorNot]

Exactly: when people are unhappy and decide they're going to remove the heads of the ruling class, "but <some other system> is worse!" is some gallows humor while they do it.

Which has historical precedent: the French revolution wasn't a well planned transition to a better system, the Russian revolutionaries overthrowing the Tsar weren't much interested in the specific details of communism.

If the defense you have for the suffering of people is "well it could be worse" you are rather gambling that they are not yet sufficiently unhappy that the effort to be rid of you won't seem worth it.

[randomNumber7]

This is the difference between a revolution and a rebellion imo.

Revolution: Fight to change the system.

Rebellion: Ok with the system. Fight to be at the head themselfes.

But it makes sense that in reality it isn't as black and white.

[lo_zamoyski]

True, but if you don't have a better alternative, then it doesn't help at all to clamor for "something better", as it doesn't exist. The best you can do is put up with reality. Frankly, that's just a general principle for living. The world will always be full of things you don't like that you can do nothing about, save to make things worse.

(I happen to think there are cultural changes and political and economic reforms that could improve the quality of our lives, but these will not be found in the the narrow and superficial debates about capitalism and socialism. The key is to begin with the right questions: "what does it mean to be human?" and "how should we live?/what is the good life?" The first is a question belonging to philosophical anthropology, the second to ethics, and these further presuppose a good basic knowledge of metaphysics, at least. Until you have a good grasp of these, you are not in a position to effectively approach the question of what kinds of political and economic orders and arrangements should be fostered, as these depend on the answers to the former. If you cling instead to the categories imposed by modernism, whose inherent tensions and contradictions are now coming to the surface and playing out in a slow-motion death rattle, then you're wasting your time.)

[lo_zamoyski]

s/as it doesn't exist/if it doesn't exist/

[coliveira]

Capitalism will be completely eliminated, I don't think it has even 50 years left.

[blooalien]

> "The capitalist box is the best box there is, for better or worse."

Only because on the whole we've been utterly resistant to every attempt to try any other way since inventing "<$money>". Bottomless greed is a real thing, and it's deeply dangerous to us all...

[next_xibalba]

Many other ways have been tried. They have been abject failures with a little mass murder, famine, and war for bonus points!

Is there some way you're thinking of that has not been tried?

[harimau777]

Democratic socialism, also called social democracy, has been dramatically more effective than America's late stage capitalism.

The heavily unionized capitalism that we had in the decades after WW2 also worked much better than our present system.

[binary132]

Someone should do the super duper hard work of figuring out what it was exactly that changed and made that stop working.

[n4r9]

They have; it's the deregulation of industry and the disempowering of anti-trust from Reagan onwards. Unfortunately it's a hard sell to undo these. But some progress is being made on antitrust.

[throwaway173738]

Read my lips: no more taxes!

[jryle70]

> has been dramatically more effective than America's late stage capitalism.

Depends on how you look at it, and which categories you measure, obviously? Why hasn't it caught on other than Nordic countries?

[blooalien]

> Democratic socialism, also called social democracy, has been dramatically more effective than America's late stage capitalism.

> The heavily unionized capitalism that we had in the decades after WW2 also worked much better than our present system.

^^^ This. ^^^

What I'd really like to see is pick all the various bits and pieces from all the things that have been tried that do work well and try to build something around using those bits to build a solid foundation, using the mistakes of the past to learn from and avoid; not repeat ad-nauseam throughout history until it brings about our eventual end as a species. Clearly not gonna happen though. We're all too hell-bent on actively not seeing any sorta "big picture" future for humanity beyond "he who dies with the most money wins".

[coliveira]

If we depend on the stupid, they'll keep repeating "this is the best system ever" until we have all being destroyed.