[l33tbro]

All 5g gay frogs aside, this a power problem and not really a people problem. How many establishment institutions are left that citizens would wish to enthusiastically uphold? We have come to almost expect corruption and these days.

This isn't a justification for irrational conspiracy theory (which are generally harmless, yet occasionally highly catastrophic). It's that the establishment whack-em-all approach is not working, and is probably exacerbating their problem.

[JumpCrisscross]

> this a power problem and not really a people problem

It’s an education and channel incentive problem. Our kids’ literacy is crashing [1]. And most Americans get their news through channels that are incentivised by selling ads.

[1] https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Living/us-students-reading-math-s...

[l33tbro]

I totally agree about literacy being huge, and would actually extend it to going beyond literacy.

The literacy crash is alarming, and is no doubt agitating this situation in a major way. However, I think what we are experiencing is something like a kind of siloing of private realities. Not the pearl-clutching 'echo chamber' discourse from 2019. But an increasing lack of social competency amongst younger people that is disallowing them to be present others in the world itself.

This is why I still think it is a power problem. Government, however incompetent, still has the monopoly on control and policy. They have experts yelling at them everyday about these problems. But their answer does seem to be more censorship and surveillance, rather than addressing the causes of these problems. As I mentioned, this only exacerbates the problem and makes it more socially dangerous.

[JumpCrisscross]

> their answer does seem to be more censorship and surveillance, rather than addressing the causes of these problems

The power hypothesis doesn’t explain Flat Eartherism. That’s just stupid people believing what I cannot imagine started as anything but a tantrum.

[CamperBob2]

The fact that Flat Earthers believe the earth is flat isn't the problem. The fact that people of such low intellectual quality have so much power over the rest of us is the problem.

[l33tbro]

Yes but a flat-earther is a useful idiot for precisely zero dangerous social movements. They are irrationally angry at nature, not the establishment.

[krapp]

>Yes but a flat-earther is a useful idiot for precisely zero dangerous social movements.

Incorrect. As with most if not all conspiracy theories, flat-earthism incorporates anger at "the establishment" because "the establishment" is hiding the truth. And this is the hook. If you can be convinced that a secret cabal is manipulating all science, controlling all governments, censoring all media and filtering all information in order to keep the basic nature of reality hidden from humanity - which flat earthers do believe - then you're susceptible to someone suggesting who that cabal might be. You know who.

[l33tbro]

True. I was being hyperbolic, but I hoped it was clear that I meant that flat-earthers are nowhere near the threat-level of something like a qanon or antivax movement, who are far more politically-activated, willing to take matters into their own hands, and likely to incite actual physical harm through ideological-driven behavior.

[tdb7893]

I wouldn't undersell the harms of general conspiracy theories. Most of them become more harmful the more people believe in them and the social media that I see has a tendency to spread the more harmful types of conspiracy theories (medical or political misinformation I see all the time on the internet now).

[l33tbro]

Yes. It has become mainstream. As soon as Kirk died, people were spouting antisemitic BS conspiracies that 'it was all Israel', even though he was the biggest shill of Israel's policies!

As you say, the medical conspiracies have really evolved since covid. I'm just glad we had covid when we did, because I feel that 5 years later people are so much more ignorant and less willing to all go through something together for the greater good.

With that said, I think the lot of conspiracy that just doesn't really hurt anyone but the believer. Aliens, moon landings, illuminati, etc. Kind of the modern day opiate of the masses.

[tstrimple]

> With that said, I think the lot of conspiracy that just doesn't really hurt anyone but the believer. Aliens, moon landings, illuminati, etc. Kind of the modern day opiate of the masses.

I'm more and more convinced that these are gateway conspiracy theories. That's where my dad started innocently enough. I remember listening to AM Coast to Coast with him. Art Bell and those "innocent" conspiracies. A couple decades later he's a completely different person with completely different beliefs all still aligned to conspiracy theories he picked up on AM radio. But now it's about Muslims taking over the country and wanting to kill or convert us all and the Clinton's and Obama's plans to enable Sharia takeover.

[tdb7893]

Are those examples at all indicative of what conspiracy theories are anymore, they seem stuck in the last century? The only one of those I've literally ever seen, even online, is aliens (and just UFO videos). On the other hand I personally know a lot of people who consistently buy into medical and political misinformation (and social media pushes it to me at least weekly, no matter how much I try to say I'm not interested).

I know a lot of people who have had to cut off family members because they got too deep into conspiracy theories and it's pretty much always weird political ones.

[l33tbro]

Yes, I feel these type of conspiracies were structurally similar, but of a slighly different composition to political conspiracy. But I think what changed is that political conspiracy became activated by the atomisation of culture and the lack of social consensus. As a result, these former examples (ufo, moonlanding, etc) now almost feel quaint and cartoonish, because they are relatively inconsequential compared to the choices people make and socially harmful actions they'll undertake with political conspiracy.

For a few reasons I personally find that the best medicine is just to nod along with these people and watch them give away their ideological hand:

a) You know where they stand and who you are dealing with.

b) They can, however rarely, be forced to actually confront the irrational logic when sharing it.

c) I think it is the compassionate thing to do, as people just often want to spout these theories as a much needed release valve. After all, people believe this stuff often because of a confusion or frustration they have with their own lives.

[nitwit005]

The conspiracy fans seem rather disinterested in conspiracies that are obviously happening, like people bribing government officials.

They seem to prefer implausible conspiracies, or where there is some ambiguity, such as documents that aren't public.

[brikym]

The wackiest conspiracy theories are probably the ones most promoted by the establishment since they taint all the plausible theories.

[JumpCrisscross]

> wackiest conspiracy theories are probably the ones most promoted by the establishment

Not really. They’re wacky because being believed by the establishment, they have consequences. I’m not bothered by flat Earthers and vaccine deniers. I am bothered when they’re in power, because now their beliefs have influence.

[krapp]

They're wacky because people want to live in a wacky world of cults and Satan and aliens and ciphers and wheels within wheels, where at least something is in control and there is an order to reality, however obscure and evil, as opposed to a world of chaos and mundane grasping evil where there is no purpose beyond rich bastards getting richer.