[bigyabai]

Hamas exists because Israel chose to support them. They wouldn't be dealing with Sinwar had they not deliberately sabotaged the PLO, so of course we're in this scenario now! You can't get angry at the natural response to subverting democracy, same thing happened after the Iran 1953 coup.

The only way to legitimize terrorism worldwide is to let Israel persist unpunished. Precision-striking civilians cannot be the basis for future conflict: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_...

[thunky]

The link listing journalists killed by Israel is crazy. Some recent examples:

> Killed when Israeli forces struck a tent sheltering Palestinians.

> Killed by an Israeli airstrike on his home.

> Killed by drone fire while collecting water near the Hamad Towers in Khan Yunis.

> Killed along with her husband and children after Israeli forces shelled a residential apartment.

> Shot by Israeli forces.

> Killed in her home by an Israeli airstrike along with her two brothers.

> Killed by an Israeli helicopter strike, along with three of his relatives.

> Killed in an Israeli airstrike along with her husband and four of their children. She was also pregnant at the time of her death.

[bigyabai]

It's a sickening thing to see from a modern military. Quite reminiscent of the Bangladesh genocide, which originally had the tacit approval of Nixon before the damages spiraled into genocide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_genocide

[dlubarov]

One of the journalists that Wikipedia simply lists as "Killed by Israeli forces", Abdullah Ahmed Al-Jamal, happened to be keeping hostages in his apartment and was killed during their rescue.

[SilverElfin]

Yep this is purposeful confusion created by the anti Israel propaganda. A lot of these lists and reports mix in some collateral damage - which is expected when a terrorist organization hides among civilians - with people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time because they were the bad guys. It’s hard to trust these claims when you can find these examples hidden among them.

[bigyabai]

No comment on the other 260+ deaths? You seem to be missing the forest for the trees.

[dlubarov]

I don't have the capacity to investigate all of them. I would be suspicious of lists that include a hostage-keeper, with no mention of his other activities outside of journalism, as well as many purported journalists with no particular affiliation.

[defrost]

Statistically it's all just a long series of one regrettable incident after another that far exceeds the usual death rate of journalists in every other conflict this century.

  Masri's body was recovered alongside his camera in an external stairwell at the hospital, from where he had been broadcasting the view across Khan Younis when the Israeli strike hit, Reuters video shows.

  A second blast on the stairwell minutes later killed at least 19 people, including rescue workers and four journalists who had worked for outlets including the Associated Press, Al Jazeera and others.

  One of the four, Moaz Abu Taha, provided visuals to Reuters and others.

  Reuters photographer Hatem Khaled was injured in the second attack while on the stairs filming the aftermath of the first blast.

  Israel's military told Reuters on Tuesday that the journalists for Reuters and the Associated Press were not "a target of the strike." Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Israel deeply regretted what he called the "tragic mishap" at the hospital.

~ https://www.reuters.com/business/media-telecom/obituary-huss...

Every individual case of journalists and rescue workers being killed in precision strikes launched with overwatch and followed through on to catch the responders can be quibbled about.

Overall - it's a shameful pattern.

[dlubarov]

Yes, that incident looked pretty bad. Bad things happen in every war, we just don't tend to hear much when it's not Israel. For example, Ukraine had some cases of prisoner abuse like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture_of_Russian_soldiers_in... (It's still minor compared to Russia's systematic prisoner abuse, though.)

[guizmo]

They are rewarding and encouraging terrorism by doing this at this very moment.

Do it before October 7th and that's another subject. Do it after Hamas has surrendered and that's also another subject.

They chose to do it precisely now, giving Hamas the victory they desired.

[lossolo]

They are opposing genocide. Doing nothing would reward what Israel is doing in Gaza now. This has not been about Hamas for a long time. Listen to what Israeli ministers are saying. There are ICC arrest warrants for Israeli leaders for what they did in Gaza. The UN has described their actions as genocide. All of this is happening two years AFTER October 7.

[dlubarov]

> The UN has described their actions as genocide.

It wasn't a UNSCR resolution or anything, but three individual UN employees whose credibility is debatable. UN employees is a broad category that includes terrorists such as Faisal Ali Musalam Naami.

[lossolo]

Since 16–17 September 2025, the UN Independent International Commission of Inquiry (created by the Human Rights Council) has issued a formal report concluding that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. That’s a UN investigative mechanism with an official report and UN press release, not a couple of random staffers. Besides that the UN Special Rapporteur on the occupied Palestinian territory (an independent mandate holder) reported in March 2024 that there are reasonable grounds the genocide threshold was met. And the International Court of Justice (the UN’s principal judicial organ) ordered provisional measures on 26 January 2024 because at least some rights under the Genocide Convention were plausibly at risk, orders it reinforced in May 2024. You can disagree with these bodies, but they’re real UN mechanisms and courts, not "three employees".

And as to Faisal Ali, separate independent review (the Colonna report) found Israel had not provided evidence of widespread militant infiltration across UNRWA’s workforce. Isolated criminality by individuals doesn’t erase findings by UN investigative mechanisms or the ICJ.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2025/09/israel-has-c...

https://www.unrwa.org/sites/default/files/unrwa_claims_vs_fa...

https://www.timesofisrael.com/unrwa-review-israel-hasnt-prov...

https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/issues/t...

[dlubarov]

It's an independent commission of inquiry making a report to the HRC. The commission could have reported that the moon is made of cheese, and the HRC wouldn't be able to do much about it, other than politely suggesting that they consider a revision.

Even if HRC did have some kind of oversight, current HRC members include Qatar, Cuba, and DRC for example.

> UN press release

Again "UN" is imprecise; the press release (at least the one I saw) was by OHCHR. Another of their press releases described Israel's hostage rescue operation as "the umpteenth massacre by Israeli forces".

> the UN Special Rapporteur on the occupied Palestinian territory

Who has been accused of antisemitism by several countries, and is currently under US sanctions.

> widespread militant infiltration

I wasn't claiming this.

[lossolo]

The COI issued a 70+ page legal analysis and a formal OHCHR press release summarizing its conclusion that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. You can dislike the HRC, but the COI is a UN mandated investigative mechanism with its own methodology and evidentiary standards.

> "UN" is imprecise

Fair, but OHCHR hosting a press release doesn’t mean "just staff opinion". OHCHR is the Secretariat for HRC mechanisms, it publishes COI materials. The COI reports to the HRC but operates independently under UN rules for commissions of inquiry. These bodies are designed to feed into accountability processes (state action, sanctions and courts), which is why states and tribunals cite them.

> current HRC members include Qatar, Cuba, and DRC for example.

Yes, membership is political, members are elected by the UN General Assembly but that doesn’t erase the COI’s evidentiary record. And the genocide question isn’t hanging only on the HRC, the International Court of Justice (a separate UN organ) has issued multiple provisional measures orders in South Africa vs Israel, finding Palestinian rights under the Genocide Convention plausible and ordering Israel to prevent genocidal acts, ensure aid and (on 24 May 2024) halt the Rafah offensive. Those are court orders, not HRC opinions.

> "the umpteenth massacre by Israeli forces".

That phrasing came from a joint statement by UN human rights experts (Special Procedures mandate holders) about the 8 June 2024 Nuseirat rescue operation, they were independent experts, not the High Commissioner personally or "the UN as a whole". They don’t bind the UN system, but their statements are part of the record governments consider.

> Who is currently sanctioned by the US for her antisemitism.

Judges from ICC are also sanctioned by US, almost anyone being critical about Israel is either condemned, called antisemitic or sanctioned by either US or Israel. I would like to remind you that US (alone) vetoed multiple UN security council resolutions. And US is isolated relative to most of the world (these below are only the ones I found from the last 3 years, there could be more):

UN General Assembly, Dec 12–13, 2023: "Immediate humanitarian ceasefire" in Gaza passed 153–10–23. US voted against, with a tiny minority of 9 other countries (Israel and some irrelevant little islands).

UN General Assembly, May 10, 2024: Resolution ES-10/23 upgraded Palestine’s participation rights and urged the Security Council to admit Palestine. It passed 143-9-25. US opposed and then vetoed the related Security Council membership bid on April 18, 2024.

Jun 12, 2025 Emergency Special Session (ES-10): A/RES/ES-10/27 149-12-19 in favor. Demanded an immediate, unconditional and permanent ceasefire, unhindered aid access, respect for IHL and protection of UN/NGO workers. The UK and many EU states voted yes, US voted no.

Sep 12-13, 2025 Regular session: "New York Declaration" on a two state pathway 142-10-12 in favor. Endorsed a two state framework that condemns Hamas and envisages a PA led governance track (so "Hamas free"). US and Israel were among the 10 no votes.

There is an obvious pattern here.

[frm88]

I cannot open the second link on UNRWA facts with any .pdf reader I own. Is that a me-problem or is the link really broken?

[guizmo]

You don't punish Israel by giving a victory to Hamas. You punish the next victim of terrorism after you recognized that it works to make you obey.

If killing as many palestinians as possible was the intention of the Israel military, they wouldn't need to go into Gaza city, they would bomb it without sending troops on the ground. The only reason for going on the ground and losing soldiers is to go dig out the Hamas.

Having the intention of annihilating Hamas isn't genocidal.

[lossolo]

Your whole argument is a copy paste from Isreal propaganda.

They didn’t "give Hamas a victory", recognition is about Palestinians right to self determination and about rescuing a two state horizon that successive Israeli governments have all but buried. That’s exactly how the UK, Australia, and Canada framed it today: "recognition is tied to 1967 borders, a reformed, non Hamas Palestinian government, and reviving a political track", not rewarding terrorism.

And no, this isn’t "ignoring Hamas". The ICC has warrants for Hamas figures and also for Netanyahu and Gallant for crimes during this war. You can reject the court, but the warrants exist and were recently upheld against attempts to quash them. That reflects how the law sees both sides’ conduct, not some applause for Hamas.

Saying Israel "must" be acting humanely because it risked troops on the ground doesn’t answer the core allegations. International law doesn’t turn on whether an army also undertakes ground ops, it turns on starvation of civilians, collective punishment, disproportionate strikes and incitement. Those are precisely among the acts the ICC cites (starvation as a method of warfare), and why so many governments now insist the political endgame can’t be left to military force alone.

If you want to deter terrorism, you need a credible political alternative that isolates militants rather than letting them claim they’re the only ones "delivering results". Recognition (explicitly conditioned on PA reform and excluding Hamas from governance)does that, it empowers non Hamas Palestinian institutions and puts real stakes on the table for a negotiated peace. That’s not "punishing Israel", it’s trying to prevent the next October 7 and the ongoing mass devastation in Gaza by giving both peoples a political path out.

So recognizing Palestine now isn’t capitulation to Hamas, it’s an attempt to stop a cycle of atrocities that law, courts, and most of the world already recognize as intolerable and to anchor a two state outcome in something more than wishful thinking.

[guizmo]

You're arguing as if the debate was about the UK formalizing its intentions to recognize a palestinian transition government that would recognize Israel. It isn't. Otherwise we would probably not have as strong a disagreement.

My disagreement is on the recognition itself at this moment in time, with Hamas still being the strongest military and political force in what could be a Palestinian state in the future.

The conditions are not met, but the recognition is already formalized. Is the plan to rescind the recognition if the PLO don't act or isn't in capacity to act on its promises?

I think it effectively rewards Hamas actions on October 7th even if it isn't the intended purpose.

And when I say that I think it will encourage terrorism, I don't mean only in Israel but in the world. That might well be a possible way out for Israel as you say, but I believe it will become the strongest success for a terrorist organization in a very long time and give ideas to other faction worldwide, especially among jihadists.

[lossolo]

They recognized a state, not Hamas.

All three governments paired recognition with language that explicitly excludes Hamas from any governing role and ties the path forward to PA reform, elections, and 1967 based parameters. Canada spelled out elections in 2026 with Hamas barred and a demilitarized Palestinian state, Australia said plainly "Hamas must have no role in Palestine" the UK framed recognition inside a two state horizon and negotiations, not as an endorsement of whoever currently wields guns in Gaza.

You can recognize a state while withholding recognition and cooperation from a particular authority. That’s what’s happening here: political recognition to salvage a two state outcome while keeping Hamas proscribed and sanctioned. The UK, Australia and Canada continue to list/designate Hamas as a terrorist organization and maintain sanctions, nothing about these decisions lifted that status.

> If conditions aren’t met, what leverage remains?

Plenty. Recognition can be followed by conditional steps (embassies, treaties, budget support, security cooperation) that only move if reforms happen so exactly what Canada, UK and Australia are signaling by tying recognition to PA reform, elections, demilitarization and negotiated borders. If those benchmarks stall, governments can freeze high level engagement, funding and agreements without "rescinding" recognition. The point is to separate Palestinian national rights from Hamas’s fortunes, not fuse them.

It’s an attempt to take the oxygen out of their narrative by decoupling Palestinian statehood from Hamas’s fate and putting the burden on reformed, elected, non Hamas institutions to represent Palestinians. If that path advances, Hamas loses relevance. And as I already mentioned, if it stalls, the recognition still strengthens the legal/political basis for a negotiated two state endgame instead of leaving the field to endless war and maximalists on both sides.

[bigyabai]

> You punish the next victim of terrorism

We already do that supporting Israeli doctrine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine

It's time for the cycle of violence to stop, on both sides. Israel is consciously escalating the conflict to preclude the possibility of peaceful reconciliation. You can't even deny it; Israel built Hamas to kill Palestine.