[jagged-chisel]

> … Most undergraduate students do not go to office hours, try to get to know their instructors, ask follow-up questions

This was actively discouraged by the instructors in the school I attended. Not by policy, but by behavior - passive-aggressively belittling students for not “getting” the subject matter, showing a complete lack of interest in reciprocating any amount of getting to know the instructor.

> … ask follow-up questions, pursue independent research, or do anything approaching "apprenticeship". Most American students matriculate into college/uni not even having ingrained behaviors that make any of these things obvious or approachable …

A failure of secondary education and students’ families.

[xhkkffbf]

I was talking with a professor yesterday who claimed his students don't ask questions any more on Piazza. They used to, but now they go to ChatGPT which is always perky and ready to answer. Plus, there's no shame in asking a dumb question as there can be in class or on Piazza.

He says it's only a matter of time before the students realize they don't need him. Or need to pay tuition.

[tayo42]

We're already there with the "do my own research" crowd.

Im not a huge defender of college and lean towards it being mostly a waste, but the other extreme is problematic.

[ioteg]

Most people don’t go to the university to learn, they go to get a diploma. If you don’t pay tuition they will not give you a diploma.

[jagged-chisel]

And we’ve all been sold a bill of goods on the necessity of diplomas and degrees. Because businesses have been sold a bill of goods on the quality of employees with diplomas and degrees.

Within at least the last 15 years, the paper provided by a school is no guarantee of better pay - but that’s how high schoolers are convinced to go into excessive debt for attending post-secondary schools.

[mcherm]

> the paper provided by a school is no guarantee of better pay

Perhaps not, but the lack of that paper IS a guarantee of worse pay.